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contained in another bill. Nowhere is there to be found a figure representing the total of appropriations. We do not even know how much we have appropriated until the process is all through Congress and the Budget Bureau tells us.

Section 1 of the proposed bill would correct this evil by requiring appropriations for all the separate departments to be pooled together into one bill before we take a vote on it. If this bill is enacted, we will have a chance to vote with the whole picture before us. We will be required to cast our votes for economy, or against economy; for a balanced budget, or against a balanced budget. We will be clearly on record.

Secondly, the bill is designed to bring about a little closer relationship between appropriations as voted by Congress and expenditures as made by the executive departments. We, in Congress, have always loved to talk about our "control of the purse strings." We have not really had control of the purse strings, and we do not have it now. The executive departments will have next fiscal year about $13,000,000,000 to spend over and above what is appropriated in the general supply bills that will be enacted during the next 3 or 4 months. This $13,000,000,000 represents money previously appropriated and still available for expenditure during the fiscal year 1948. By this means it is possible for the administration to ask for only $28,000,000,000 of new appropriations, although it plans to spend over 37 billions next year and still have 4 billions available after June of 1948.

Section 2 of the bill is designed to give Congress real control of the money actually to be spent rather than a mere paper control which we have found does not permit Congress to make its decisions really effective.

Some amendments to this concurrent resolution are probably desirable before it is enacted. I understand that Senator Byrd has prepared several amendments, and I might state that the copy of the bill I have has not been brought up to date.

Senator WHERRY. Do you have any amendments other than those which Senator Byrd has suggested?

Senator BUTLER. I have no amendments to propose at this time.
Senator WHERRY. But you may have?
Senator BUTLER. That is correct.

However, I concur with the

amendments that Senator Byrd has proposed.

One point which Senator Byrd may not have covered relates to the possible need for greater coordination between the Senate and House committees on Appropriations.

Senator WHEELER. You mean as regards the time element?

Senator BUTLER. Yes. I can imagine that this bill might delay Senate action on appropriations by holding the consolidated appropriation bill up in the House until a date late in the Spring. It might be necessary, therefore, for the Senate committee to find some means of beginning its studies before receiving a bill from the House. Possibly joint hearings would be desirable. That is something that the two committees can best work out for themselves, so I believe the problem can safely be left in the hands of the Senate Appropriations Committee.

In my judgment, this budget problem is the biggest single issue that faces us today. The people rightly look to us to take some action to wipe out the excesses and stop the waste that has been going on for

so many years. As a first step, I believe we must place our own house in order and reform our system so that we can handle the problem intelligently. This bill is offered as a step in that direction.

Senator WHERRY. Senator Butler, the time element was quite fully discussed here this morning, and I think the one thing impressing to all was the fact that there possibly ought to be some limit on the time the House could hold the over-all appropriation bill, so as to get it over for Senate consideration before the end of the term. I think that mechanically the Appropriations committees and your Ways and Means and Finance committees can look into all of the matters of the 12 different titles. Take the Department of the Interior, for example. If the House concluded its hearings before the subcommittee it could then send them over here and we could go ahead and work on them before the general appropriations bill would come over. But I do think there is need of some time limit so the House will send over the general appropriations bill the Senate will have sufficient time-if we are going to pass one bill-to consider the whole thing.

Senator BUTLER. I am sure that the House and Senate committees will be able to work out their part of the coordinated program, and I am also certain that we will find a very splendid spirit of cooperation from the departments of the Government in trying to arrive at a workable plan.

Senator WHERRY. I believe the departments have so indicated this morning. They are in agreement on the objective of the bill, but mechanical differences remain to be ironed out.

Therefore, if there is no further testimony at this time we will adjourn this subcommittee hearing subject to call. In the meantime I would like to have all proposed amendments presented to us. Then we will call another hearing at which they may be explained, and I think we ought to have the departments represented at that time. I want to thank you all for coming.

(Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., the subcommittee adjourned subject to call.)

TO INCLUDE ALL GENERAL APPROPRIATION BILLS IN ONE CONSOLIDATED GENERAL APPROPRIATION BILL

THURSDAY, MAY 1, 1947

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUCCOMMITTEE ON RULES OF THE

COMMITTEE ON RULES AND ADMINISTRATION,

Washington, D. C.

The subcommittee met at 9:45 a. m., pursuant to notice, Senator Kenneth S. Wherry (chairman) presiding.

Present: Senators Wherry (chairman), Ives, and Hayden.

Also present: Senator Byrd; Edward F. Bartelt, Fiscal Assistant Secretary, Treasury Department; F. H. Weitzel, Assistant to the Comptroller General, General Accounting Office; F. J. Lawton, Acting Assistant Director, Bureau of the Budget; G. L. Cake, Associate Commissioner of Accounts, Treasury Department; S. M. Brown, General Accounting Office; C. W. Tiller, Bureau of the Budget. Senator WHERRY. All right, Senator.

STATEMENT OF HON. HARRY F. BYRD, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA

Senator BYRD. We have here today the representative of the Treasury, the Budget Bureau and the General Accounting Office representatives. We have been going over Senate Concurrent Resolution 6 very carefully, and I want to suggest an amendment. On page 1, line 6, before the words "the Eightieth Congress," insert the words "the second session of the."

That postpones the effective date until the next session of Congress. Now, then, come to section 2 of the bill. In conference with the General Accounting Office, the Budget Bureau, and the Treasury, we have come to some conclusions. I would like Mr. Weitzel to explain. to the committee the conclusions.

Mr. WEITZEL. Mr. Chairman, paragraph 2 in the resolution as introduced provides that the consolidated general appropriation bill and each deficiency or supplemental and each general appropriation bill shall show in tabular form by item and total certain information as to the amount to be expended during the ensuing fiscal year and the amount which will be available for expenditure subsequent to the close of the ensuing fiscal year.

The intent of the resolution was to have the items shown in the tabulation act as a limitation on expenditures by the Departments in administering the appropriations after they have been made by the Congress. Certain technical difficulties were encountered in trying to make these applicable as limitations.

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It was found that it would require greatly increased accounting in the executive departments and probably in the General Accounting Office and, possibly, in the Treasury, depending on the interpretation which was put on the term "expenditures."

Some amendments were proposed in an effort to smooth out some of those difficulties. In later conferences with Senator Byrd, a new approach has been worked out, which would have the effect of placing the tabulations provided for in paragraph 2 in the committee report instead of the bill for purposes of information to the Congress. That would mean that paragraph 2, as revamped, would require these tabulations to be included in the committee reports accompanying each general appropriation bill and in all conference reports on such appropriation bills.

Senator WHERRY. How does that alleviate the situation.

Mr. WEITZEL. That would give Congress the information which it needs as to the effect of its appropriations on expenditures during the ensuing fiscal year. It would mean there would be an estimate in the committee report and in the conference report showing how much was anticipated to be expended during the year if Congress appropriated the amount carried in the bill.

Senator WHERRY. I don't understand yet the mechanics of your accounting. I don't understand why that makes it feasible if you print it up in the committee reports, for the availability to the Congress. Why is that better than doing it as suggested in the bill.

What I am trying to figure out is: Does it take just as much accounting to do what you say now as it does here?

Mr. WEITZEL. I can understand your question perfectly, and it may take time to explain it. However, I will try.

The point is this: The amount which would be carried in the committee reports would be estimated, based on the best available information at the time the estimates were made. They would be similar to the estimates carried in the budget as presented to the Congress and to the information now presented by the Departments to the Appropriations Committee when they come before them for their appropriations.

Now, considering that they are estimates, if you tried to put them in the form of limitations on expenditures after you had made a certain amount available for obligation, the departments would experience considerable difficulty in keeping within those estimates of expenditures.

That is on the basis that an expenditure is something other than an obligation. On that basis, an appropriation is authority to a department to incur an obligation, the expenditure for which may not come until a year or two later. However, if you attempt to control the expenditures too, the department may incur the obligation, but when it comes to spend the money, that is to pay it out, it finds itself exceeding the expenditure ceiling placed in the resolution.

In order to determine that it will not exceed the expenditure ceiling the department has to set up a duplicate or triplicate set of accounts. not only accounts for obligations but accounts for expenditures under every fiscal-year appropriation during that year, and during the suc ceeding fiscal year, and during the next succeeding fiscal year. At

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