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greatest possible importance that there and the agent of Colonel White's property should be some legislation during that on the river itself. The hon. and gallant Session. The proper course would be to Gentleman, though he had failed in one refer the Bill to the Select Committee; competitive examination in Ireland, had and when it had been well considered succceded at his second in England. He there, then the right hon. Baronet might might, therefore, be certain that his intake charge of it, and pass it with the interests would be properly attended to. fluence of the Government. It had been MR. BLAKE said, he had witnessed shown distinctly by the evidence of Mr. the disastrous effects of fixed engines on Fennel that the fisheries were becoming the fishing both of the rivers Suir and much more unproductive than they for- Barrow. He thought the noble Lord the merly were, and it was very unfortunate Member for Marylebone must have listhat a qualified sanction had been given tened to idle stories about the misconduct to the existence of stake and bag nets in of the present proprietor of the lax weir 1842. At the same time it would be very at Limerick. He could assure the House unjust to take away the power of fishing that the statements about "crocodiles" from the proprietors of the Lower Shannon and "stuffed otters" having been sunk for the mere purpose of increasing the to scare away the fish were altogether revenues of the lax weir at Limerick. unfounded as far as that gentleman was concerned.

MR. BRADY said, he must insist on the necessity of legislation during that Session. The objection to Bills in the hands of private Members was a sterco-ed typed one, with which he had been familiar ever since he entered the House.

LORD FERMOY explained that the statements which he had made were found

on the Report of the Fishery Commissioners. He was quite satisfied with the debate which had taken place, and, with the permission of the House, would withdraw his Amendment.


MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, the state of the House sufficiently showed that the subject was a fishy one." His noble Friend the Member for Marylebone was not, he thought, open to the attack made upon him by the Chief Secretary for Ireland; but, at the same time, that right hon. Gentleman could not be charged with any unwillingness to take charge of Bills. At the present moment he had the conduct of fourteen Government Bills relating to Ireland exclusively. There were fifteen others in the hand of private Members, and every day and night brought forth a fresh one. All these measures related exclusively to Ireland, he supposed with a view of consolidating the Union between the two countries.

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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 2o, and committed to a Select



Order for Second Reading read. MR. IIUNT said, he thought a great deal of the cumbrous machinery by which lists of jurors were at present made out, and jurors themselves summoned, might be got rid of if the agency of the Post Office were more extensively used. The object of the Bill was to provide that clerks of the peace, instead of issuing warrants for the high constable to take precepts to the parish officers, should themselves forward these through the post as registered letters to the parish officers; and in like manner, when the lists were allowed by the magistrates at Petty Sessions, that the magistrates' clerk should return them to the clerk of the peace without the intervention of the high constable. The other object of the Bill was to dispense with the heavy outlay entailed upon the sheriff in having to employ a staff to leave summonses at the houses of jurors. That object it was sought to accomplish by following the precedent contained in the Registration Act, under which proof of

the service of an objection was allowed if the party forwarding it by post had taken it to the postmaster, and required him to stamp both the objection and the duplicate. That Act had been in force for the last twenty years, and he had never heard any complaints of hardship inflicted on persons who had been struck off the roll without sufficient notice.

MR. HENLEY said, he did not object to the Bill being read a second time, as he understood the Committee was to be postponed till towards the end of June, which would give sufficient time for the consideration of the subject. The merits of the first portion of the Bill consisted to a great extent in the amount of the saving which would be effected, and on that point he was not prepared to offer any opinion, as he did not know what the expenses of the existing system were. But he entertained considerable doubt whether it would be safe to impose fines upon an absent jury. man, on the assumption that the letter containing the summons had been duly delivered. Under the present system it very often happened, though there was no appearance, that the returning officer had it in his power to state mitigating circumstances which had come to his knowledge. MR. WHITESIDE said, he thought it would be a hard measure to fine jurymen under the circumstances contemplated by the Bill, seeing that they were sufficiently punished in being kept away from their business. He should not, however, oppose the Motion; but he would take that opportunity of expressing his belief that a good Jury Bill on the principle of rating would be a very desirable measure.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2o, and committed for Wednesday 25th June.


MR. HENNESSY said, he was afraid that the Bill would not lead to a diminution of expense and inconvenience in the Irish counties. The erection of additional polling-places would lead to a new outlay; and Ireland was not supplied, like England, with an extensive network of railway communication, which could most readily secure the success of such a measure.


Order for Second Reading read.

MR. AGAR-ELLIS said, he rose to move the second reading of the Bill. Its object was to limit the time for polling at elections in Ireland to one day, and thus assimilating them to the time in England. In order to accomplish that object he would propose to increase the number of polling places, which did not exceed one for each barony. That part of the Bill, however, would be permissive only. He saw no reason why the expenses of the altered system should exceed the present.

COLONEL FRENCH said, that the argument of the hon. Member for the King's County, founded on the non-existence in Ireland of a network of railways, was not applicable, as it was proposed by the Bill to increase the number of polling-places.

MR. LEFROY said, he believed that lessening the duration of elections in Ireland would have the effect of doing away with some of the excitement that prevailed at those elections.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY remarked, that under the Bill the increase in the number of polling-places would be made on the petition of magistrates to the Lord Lieutenant. He thought that such a step should be taken only on the joint application of the sitting Members; or, at all events, that the sitting Members should have a veto on the application.

MR. GEORGE said, he had no objection to shortening the duration of county elections in Ireland; but a machinery already existed for increasing the number of polling-places in cases where it was necessary to do so.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he had no doubt that the limitation of the polling to one day would prove beneficial in Irish counties, as it had in English. If the existing law afforded sufficient facilities for increasing the number of polling places, the clause to effect that object might not be necessary; but that point could be settled in Committee.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2°, and committed for Tuesday


ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL. [BILL NO. 116.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. MR. AGAR-ELLIS, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, that its object was to limit the time which should elapse between the receipt of the writ and the holding of an election in Ireland.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read 2o, and committed for Tuesday




MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he rose to move that the Select Committee on the Judgments Law Amendment (Ireland) Bill, and the Land Debentures (Ireland) Bills, do consist of nineteen Members; and that Mr. M. O'FERRALL, Sir EDWARD GROGAN, and Colonel GREVILLE be added to the Committee.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he should oppose the Motion. He thought sixteen Members were an amply sufficient number to form the Committee on the Bill.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he was surprised at the opposition of the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He should be glad if the right hon. and learned Gentleman would himself take charge of both the Bills; and as he (Mr. Scully) had charge of one of them, he was surprised that his proposal was objected to. He thought that the addition of these three Gentlemen's names would be found useful.

Motion made, and Question put,

"That the Select Committee on the Judgments Law Amendment (Ireland) Bill and the Land Debentures (Ireland) Bills do consist of nineteen


The House divided:-Ayes 39; Noes 61: Majority 22.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY asked, that his name might be struck off the hon. and learned Member's Committee.

Ilouse adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, May 29, 1862. MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS.-1o Ballot at Municipal


2o Jurisdiction in Homicides; Rifle Volunteer Grounds Act (1860) Amendment; Artillery Ranges; Sandhurst Vesting; Discharged Prisoners' Aid.



attention has been called to the fact, as alleged, that no inquest has been held on any of the bodies washed ashore on the coast of Pembrokshire, from the wreck of the Mars steamer in April last; and that no official inquiry has been instituted into the causes that led to that disaster?

MR. DUDLEY FORTESCUE said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his

SIR GEORGE GREY in reply said, he had written to the coroner to ascertain why no inquests had been held, and the reply was that there were very few survivors, he believed six, and that they had all left Pembrokeshire before the bodies of those who had been drowned were washed ashore; and as no evidence could be submitted to a jury beyond the fact of the bodies having been found, it was not thought worth while to empannel a jury to verify that which was a notorious fact. With regard to an official inquiry, he believed that among the six survivors, there was no one qualified to give an opinion as to the management of a ship.



MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, on the conclusion of the last Persian war by the evacuation of Herat by the Persians, Ahmed Jan, the Sultan or Ruler of Herat, did not acknowledge the sovereignty of the Shah by performing allegiance to him, and having the coinage struck in the name of the Shah; whether it is not the case that this same Sultan of Herat, either with or without the assistance of Persian troops, is now marching on Candahar, that the sons of Dost Mohammed of Caubul, are marching against him, and that there are imminent probabilities of war breaking out in those regions; and whether, in case of the occurrence of such hostilities, it will be the intention of Her Majesty's Government, or of the Indian Government, to intervene in any way either for or against any of the powers of Central Asia, or to extend any India beyond the limits of the great mounoperations designed for the security of tain passes which form the present frontier of that country?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, in reply, that the relations between the British Government and that of the Shah of Persia, with regard to Affghanistan, are regulated by the Treaty concluded, between Great Britain and Persia in March 1857, on the conclusion of the war. By that Treaty the Shah of Persia engaged to abstain from

making any claim to sovereignty over | extra Police are or will be stationed at Herat, and not to require any of those or near the spot where the late Mr. Thiethings to be done which in the East are bault was murdered; what is the esticonsidered as tokens of submission to a mated cost of such extra force, and will it higher power. The Shah also undertook be charged on the occupiers of any, and by the same Treaty not to interfere in any which particular townlands? way with the affairs of the States of Affghanistan; and if any differences arose between him and those States, to seek the good offices of the British Government. On the other hand, the British Government undertook to use those good offices with the States of Affghanistan, to prevent them from in any way giving offence to the Shah of Persia; and if any differences should arise, Great Britain would interpose in a manner just and equitable both to the Government of the Shah of Persia and the Affghan States. As to any acts that may have been done by the ruler of Herat, implying allegiance to the Shah, before the Treaty of 1857, that Treaty has annulled and swept them away. With regard to the present state of affairs, I believe the ruler of Herat has marched on and taken possession of the town of Furrah, as to which there has been a dispute for some time between him and the Affghans. In doing so, I believe his forces did advance towards Candahar, and that some engagement did ensue. But all these transactions have taken place between different States of Affghanistan itself, and we have no reason to believe that any Persian troops were engaged in them.

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, the Government had sent down ten extra policemen to the locality where Mr. Thiebault was assassinated. The estimated cost of each man was £35 per annum, payable in advance. As long as these men were stationed there, the cost of their maintenance would be charged on the townlands in the vicinity; but of course the townland of Rockville would not be charged, because it was the property of the brother of the murdered man.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, the noble Lord had not answered the question as to whether it would be the intention of Her Majesty's Government to intervene in any way either for or against the powers of Central Asia, or to extend any operations designed for the security of India beyond the limits of the great mountain passes which form the present frontier of the country.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: These disputes are between different States of Affghanistan; and I do not apprehend there is any reason for Her Majesty's Government interfering in them. If the security of India is threatened with any invasion from Affghanistan, then the Government of India will take such measures as the circumstances render necessary.


MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether any, and how many,

DEFENCE COMMISSION.—QUESTION. MR. GREGORY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, If the Evidence taken before the Defence Commissioners will be laid before the House, together with the Report; and, if not, when that Evidence will be laid on the table?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, the Report was presented without the Evidence, because it was assumed the House would wish to see that Report without delay. But the Evidence was in the hands of the printer, and would be ready to present in a few days.


MR. LINDSAY said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, If he has any objection to lay upon the table of the House a Return of the number of Iron-cased Vessels built and building, or in course of conversion, for the use of Her Majesty's Navy; and a Copy of the List in the possession of Her Majesty's Government, of the thirty-six Iron-cased Ships said to be built or building for the Government of France, with the state of far as practicable, and in both cases disprogress and tonnage of each vessel, as tinguishing sea-going ships from floating batteries?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: There can be no objection, Sir, to laying on the table of the House a Return of the number of Iron-cased Vessels built and building, or in course of conversion, for the use of Her Majesty's Navy, when they were launched or when they were expected to be launched, as far as the

Admiralty can furnish that information. | some of the most eminent men who were With regard to the iron-clad ships in the acquainted with the various qualities of French service, there will also be no dif- iron to assist them in preparing a scheme ficulty, I believe, in laying before the by which they might issue tenders for conHouse, from the Foreign Office documents, tracts, giving minute details as to strength the number and names of ships which are of iron, and the various qualities required built and building, and the place where for plating vessels, and for iron yards and those ships were launched. With regard masts, and stating the test that would be to the particular state of progress of each applied, and he might say that the test vessel, I am not sure we have the means they meant to exact would in no case be of giving such details. Perhaps the departed from. He trusted that in the French documents may give the time course of the autumn they would be prewhen those that are not yet launched pared to issue tenders, which would open may be expected to be launched. the trade as far as possible with a view to getting the best quality of iron for shipping purposes.

MR. LINDSAY said, he wished to know if it were the case that a special document was given by the French Government to Lord Cowley, with the request that Captain Gower, the naval aidede-camp to the Embassy at Paris, might go and examine for himself? If the noble Lord had any such document, would he lay it on the table of the House?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I have no doubt, if Captain Gower applied for permission to visit the French arsenals and dockyards, no difficulty would be thrown in his way, and that every facility would be given to him. But I am not aware that any such document as that alluded to by the hon. Member has been given to Lord Cowley.



LORD RICHARD GROSVENOR said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether, considering the great importance which attaches to the quality of iron, both for building and for plating ships, the Government proposes to take any new steps for securing a supply of iron for the purposes of the Navy of the best quality?

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, the question of the noble Lord was one of considerable importance, and he would endeavour to state what the Admiralty was doing in respect to the iron for the supply of the Navy. Hitherto the contracts for iron had been of a very simple description; but as they had progressed with building iron ships, and especially iron-cased ships, the Admiralty thought fit to take into their consideration the best means of obtaining the best quality of iron, and they had, with a view of issuing fresh contracts, given notice to close all their contracts for iron; and they were going to call together Viscount Palmerston


MR. WHITESIDE said, he wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether any rule has been framed by the National Board of Education in Ireland which of a school and during school hours, or the permits the use of prayer at the opening posting of the Ten Commandments in the School?

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, in reply, that he was sorry to find that the right hon. and learned Gentleman was not well acquainted with the rules of the National Board. If he referred to Rules 12, 14, and 16, he would find that they permitted the use of prayer at the opening of the school and during school hours, after the ordinary school business was closed. The managers of the schools were not required to exclude children during the time of prayer, but all the children had full power, by the intimation of the wish of their parents and guardians, to withdraw from it.

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