MR. CLAY expressed his satisfaction that the noble Lord had not accepted the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, which had been generally spoken of as calculated, if was not intended, to humiliate him. The noble Lord had, however, undeceived those who thought that he was ready to swallow anything. There was a want of vigour and of reality both about the original Motion and the Amendments, with the single exception of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Horsman), which alone raised a distinct and an honest issue. Question, "That the words proposed to "That the words 'this House, deeply impressed interests Abroad; and observes with satisfaction not to give that opinion, but rather to things really in the face, but has shown protest against the speech of the right a political discretion and wisdom which hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) as re- some of those who have censured him will gards the colour which he has given to one day recognise. the conduct of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) and the course which he felt it his duty to take, and also against the view which was taken by an hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. B. Osborne) on the same subject. It is true that the course which events have taken this evening have reduced to a solemn farce that which ought to have been a serious debate. But to whom is that owing? It is owing not to my right hon. Friend, but to the noble Lord. Hear, hear!" "No, no!"] Yes, to the noble Lord-for the noble Lord, with that adroitness of which he is so great a master, put the House in such a position that it was absolutely impossible for the debate to go on otherwise than in a manner which would be entirely beside the question which we were met to discuss. Now, I say that the course taken by my right hon. Friend is one which with the necessity of economy in every Departleaves it in the power of the House to ment of the State, is at the same time mindful deal with the subject again. You may be of its obligation to provide for the security of assured of this-that if my right hon. the Country at Home and the protection of its Friend had not withheld his Amendment, the decrease which has already been effected in the result would have been that the whole the National Expenditure, and trusts that such House would have been embarked in further diminution may be made therein as the a subject entirely foreign to finance. The future state of things may warrant,' be added whole question would have been whether to the word 'That' in the original Question," the noble Lord was to retain office or not.-put, and agreed to. Many a man who does not agree with the noble Lord politically or financially on some subjects would have withdrawn from opposition rather than have disturbed the noble Lord in the possession of the office which he holds. Any looker-on may judge how far the noble Lord's Government has gained in character by the course pursued to-night. I will give no opinion on that. Let every person who reads the newspapers to-morrow judge of our position. But this I say, that this financial subject remains open; it awaits discussion; discussion some time or other is inevitable, and you will then approach it without the prejudices with which it would have been approached if my right hon. Friend had not exercised a wise discretion. ["Oh, oh !"] There may be Gentlemen eager for a division; but of this I feel confident, that the time will come when they will see that my right hon. Friend has been the man who has saved them from a great difficulty, and that he has not only shown the fair disposition which he always does to look Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to. Resolved, necessity of economy in every Department of the That this House, deeply impressed with the State, is at the same time mindful of its obliga. tion to provide for the security of the Country at Home and the protection of its interests Abroad; and observes with satisfaction the decrease which has already been effected in the National Expen diture, and trusts that such further diminution House adjourned at a quarter after HOUSE OF LORDS, Thursday, June 5, 1862. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.- 1a Jurisdiction in Homicides; Sandhurst Vesting. 2 Universities (Scotland) Act Amendment; Red Sea and India Telegraph Company. COPYRIGHT (WORKS OF ART) BILL. [BILL NO. 49.] ORDER FOR COMMITTEE DISCHARGED. BILL COMMITTED TO A SELECT COMMITTEE. EARL GRANVILLE said, that in accordance with what appeared to be the general feeling of their Lordships, he proposed to move that this Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He thought that would be the best mode of dealing with the complicated details of the question. that period. But engravings published in illustrated works did not fall within the terms of the Literary Copyright Act, and therefore they were governed by the Engravings Act, which only gave a copyright of twenty-eight years, under certain conditions. In this Bill it was proposed to give to engravers a copyright during the author's life, and for seven years afterwards; but not to give the alternative period of forty-two years. Under the Designs Act, sculptors could register their works, and recover penalties in case of piracy; but the law in respect to sculpture differed from the law relating to painting and engravings. The result was an uncertain and incomplete state of things. He could not but think that it was desirable to establish the same law in reference to all artistic and literary productions. He thought, also, that the question of international copyright should be LORD CHELMSFORD said, he approved considered, together with the whole subthe reference to a Select Committee, be- ject of domestic copyright, before they cause he thought that before the Bill be- proceeded to fresh legislation; and he came law it would require to undergo would suggest that a Select Committee be very material alteration. At the same appointed to inquire into the law of copytime he would venture to suggest the ne-right in general, and that this Bill should cessity for an inquiry into the law of artis- be referred to that Committee. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, he would not oppose the reference to a Select Committee, but thought that the required amendments could have been made in the Bill in a Committee of the Whole House. He would suggest, however, that the Committee should consider whether, in giving new protection to painters and engravers, it would not be well to give similar protection to sculptors. tic copyright generally, which appeared LORD TAUNTON said, he believed his to him to be in an unsettled and unsatis-noble Friend the President of the Counfactory condition. This Bill only pro- cil had exercised a very wise discretion posed to deal with drawings and paint- in referring the Bill to a Select Comings, leaving the question as concerned mittee. He believed that the Bill pushed sculpture unchanged. He thought the the principle of protection to a most exexisting law with regard to engravings travagant point. He should despair of and sculpture required amendment. The making the measure a reasonable one in a law of copyright affecting engravings de- Committee of the Whole House, but he pended upon an old Act of 1735, called hoped that in a Select Committee they Hogarth's Act," which gave engravers would be able to give to it that chaa copyright in their works for fourteen racter. years, afterwards extended to twenty-eight EARL STANHOPE trusted that the inyears. In order to obtain that privilege,quiry before the Select Committee would however, it was requisite that each en-be proceeded with immediately after the graving should bear the name of the en- Whitsuntide recess; for he should congraver and the date of the first publication, which requirement was, of course, not fulfilled in the case of artists' proofs and proofs before letters. As the term of copyright in engravings was not the same as that of literary copyright, in the case of engravings illustrating a work a question arose whether the engravings were governed by the Literary Copyright Act. Under the Literary Copyright Act, no preliminary conditions were prescribed, and copyright was given to the author during his life, and for seven years afterwards; or for a total period of forty-two years, if his life should not extend to sider it a great misfortune if the Bill, which had already received the assent of the other House, should, in consequence of any unnecessary delay, be dropped for the present Session. EARL GRANVILLE was afraid, that if the Select Committee were to enter into the consideration of all the subjects adverted to by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford), a great delay must take place. LORD CHELMSFORD said, that what he desired was, that the different laws with respect to artistic works should be assimilated. EARL GRANVILLE said, he would en- | depend on the successful operation of the deavour to name the Committee before the telegraphic communication. House adjourned. Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on this Bill discharged; and Bill referred to a Select Committee: Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH observed, that electric telegraph communication with India was not merely of commercial importance, but of the highest political importance also. If the matter were left to the management of a Company, he had no great hopes of the success of the scheme. The line must pass through the territories of foreign rulers. A Company would hardly be able to carry out the object without the intervention of the Government. He therefore thought it would V. Stratford de Red- have been better if the Government had The Lords following were named of the Committee; the Committee to meet on Monday the 16th instant, at Four o'Clock, and to appoint their own Chairman : E. Ellesmere. Ld. Chamberlain. V. Hardinge. cliffe. L. Overstone. RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH kept the whole matter in their own hands. LORD LYVEDEN said, he did not agree with the noble Duke in thinking that all that now remained to be done was to make the best of a bad bargain. He wished to know whether the Government had gone into the question, whether or not the electric telegraph to be established under the Bill would form the best line of communication with India? Suppose this Company should fail, were Government to take no other steps to complete telegraphic communication with India? Had they con The correspondence which had taken place between the two Companies was very meagre, and there had been no declaration by the Government as to what the contract was. [BILL NO. 70.] SECOND READING. Order for the Second Reading read. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said that its object was to make the best of a bad bar-sidered whether this scheme was feasible? gain. In 1858, the late Government entered into an agreement with a Company which had engaged to establish an electric telegraph communication between England and India. By that agreement the Company were guaranteed an annual payment of 4 per cent on any sum up to £800,000 which they might expend on the work, provided they succeeded in establishing such a communication. The Company laid down the communication, and for a short time each separate part was in successful operation, and messages were for some days transmitted from England to Kurrachee. The Company had therefore fulfilled the condition. But very soon after the line had been brought into working order, some of the most important of its links became defective, and had never since been restored. The Government nevertheless were still bound to pay the stipulated 4 per cent per annum. Under these circumstances the whole matter was then thrown upon the Government, who declined to attempt to restore the telegraphic communication themselves, but entered into an agreement with a new Company, by which that Company were to be remunerated from the profits of the undertaking, so that their profits would There THE DUKE OF ARGYLL thought his noble Friend misunderstood the whole transaction. The arrangement as to the payment of the late Company was not altered. They were absolutely entitled, under a Report made to the House of Commons, and by a vote of that House, to every farthing of money that was given to them by this Bill. was a provision in the Bill, however, for converting that payment into annuities, and for their redemption by Government. The new Company, at their own risk and with a large expenditure of capital, offered to fish up the Red Sea cable and complete the line of communication with India, without any advance or guarantee from the Government, and only stipulating for the profits of the line if they succeeded. He thought such an arrangement, so far as the Government were concerned, was making the best of a bad bargain; and he was not sure that, after all, this was not the most certain mode of establishing telegraphic communication with India, which the Government were event of a war the communication would most anxious to see carried out. be destroyed. LORD REDESDALE observed, that while the Bill stated there were certain arrangements which had been entered into with Her Majesty's Treasury, these were not set out either in the preamble or schedules. He thought it extremely important that these arrangements should be specified in the Bill. He had hoped that the mode in which the Bill was drawn had been exploded long ago. EARL GREY wished to know whether the arrangement the Government had made would be any obstacle to their establishing another line, either by the Red Sca or through Persia, if that should be considered advisable, or whether a complete monopoly was given to one Company? He thought it most important that the hands of the Government and Parliament should not be bound by such an arrangement. Copies of Correspondence between the Committee of Privy Council on Education and the Committee of a proposed National School at Chrishall, relative to an Application made for a Building Grant for the said School, and refused by the Committee of Council." The right rev. Prelate said, that the case which he had to bring before their Lordships was a very small one in itself, but it involved principles which, if allowed to remain in operation, would affect the THE DUKE OF ARGYLL approved the whole of the Church of England Schools. general principle stated by the noble It was the case of the parish of Chrishall, Chairman of Committees. Parliament in Essex, in which place, after a considershould undoubtedly keep a sharp look-able period of neglect, something like a out in all these cases; and had that taken place in 1858, very possibly the original agreement would not have been sanctioned. The whole of the present arrangement had been laid before Parliament in the shape f a Treasury Minute, and the letter of he new Company accepting the terms. This was before the end of March, so that the House of Commons had had time maturely to consider the subject; and, in point of fact, no objection had been made to it. There was no guarantee given that other lines should not be established; the only agreement was that the new Company should restore and complete the communication, and that they should have all the profits of the line up to the limit of 25 per cent, beyond which there were various arrangements as to the right of pre-emption. All this was specified in the Treasury Minute, but he should not object to insert the Treasury Minute in a schedule, if the rules of Parliamentary procedure would permit of that course. LORD REDESDALE said, he did not think there was much reason to apprehend any competition in the establishment of such a line of communication. His opinion was that the £200,000 proposed to be expended in restoring this communication would be thrown away; and, oreover, he was convinced that in the little revival had taken place, and an effort to be in perpetuum, and it was an in- which were made so strenuously by relivariable rule that the assent or wishes of gious bodies; but in the present instance existing parishioners should not be acted what he and many others felt, and what upon so as to bind those who came after had been represented to him continually them. It was added that the parish of since the question of the conscience clause Chrishall was avowedly too small to sup- had been so frequently agitated, was that port more than one school; and that as the money power vested in the Committee nearly half of the inhabitants were Dis- of Council was made to control and insenters, the next generation might be un- fluence the religious character of schools. willing to let their children attend a school That was totally alien to the principles in connection with the National Society; upon which the movement began. If and the fact that an objection might pos- carried out extensively, it must bring consibly be raised hereafter to the school on fusion into all the efforts that might be the part of some of the parishioners was made to promote the Church of England deemed by the Education Committee a schools, and that, too, without a particle sufficient reason for refusing a grant in of evidence that the discretionary power aid of the building. If the possible exist- which managers were entitled and called ence of Dissent in another generation was upon to exercise had been in any way to be considered an obstacle to the making abused. In the absence of such evidence, of a grant in aid of a National School, the it was rather hard that those who were application of that principle would effec- exerting themselves to promote Church of tually debar the extension of Church of England schools should be prevented from England Schools by the aid of public exercising the discretionary power vested money, as had heretofore been the case. in them; while, at the same time, they The reply of the Education Committee were told that the Committee of Council contained an intimation that there was would themselves exercise a discretionary something of a proselytizing system in power as to the schools which they might the Church of England Schools; but such deem entitled to receive aid where Dissent a system the National Society repudiated, in any form existed. He held, for his own except so far as it was bound to carry out part, that a discretionary power might be its principles as an embodiment of the abused in the way of making grants, just National Church promoting the cause of as much as in requiring the application of education. The National Society, by the religious tests. It was a fact, however, profession of its members and by its charter, that the National Society had resisted atentertained, and had always insisted on tempts by managers to introduce religious promoting, the principles of the Church tests. The Education Committee, in their of England; but, at the same time, it had reply to the promoters of the Chrishall in its terms of union certain discretionary school, professed to be guided by old rules. powers vested in managers which were Now, the only rule bearing on the subject designed to obviate objections, probably of was to be found in page 6 of the last a temporary kind, that might be made here Code, and was to the effect that the reliand there. It was not correct to say that gious denomination of each school should there was anything of a proselytizing cha- be suitable to the families relied upon for racter in the National Society, beyond that the supply of scholars. He presumed that which must necessarily belong to it as the the people themselves were to judge of representative of the Church of England. what was suited to their case. The inSuch a statement might equally well be habitants of Chrishall were unanimous in made with respect to the British and Fo- favour of the proposed National school; reign Society, because the British and Fo- but, leaving that point, he was at a loss reign Schools were as much the schools of to know when and where this rule had its the Dissenters as the National Schools origin? It was certainly to be found in were the schools of the Church of England. the last Code, but it had no existence The principle upon which the public grants before. When the difficulty about the were originally made was that of encourag-management clauses was arranged, it was ing religious bodies who had already been thought that the National Society would exerting themselves in order to pro- be permitted to go on in its good work mote the education of the country, and without molestation; and it was it was agreed that the question of reli- tainly startling to be told that the money gion should be put on one side. The power wielded by the Education Comcountry was to avail itself of the efforts mittee was to be used to control the cer |