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THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said, he was opposed to the clause, fearing that if it were passed innkeepers would become careless as to whether parties were bond fide travellers or not, and would serve anybody who said he was a traveller.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL observed, that the clause was introduced in accordance with the recommendation of the Royal Commissioners.

Westbury, L. (L. Chan- Durham, Bp. cellor).

Lincoln, Bp.

Oxford, Bp.
Rochester, Bp.

Richmond, D.

Bath, M.

Amherst, E.
Belmore, E.
Desart, E.

Doncaster, E. (D. of
Buccleuch and Queens-
Granville, E.
Haddington, E.
Home, E. [Teller.]
Morton, E.

Powis, E.

Shaftesbury, E.
Shrewsbury, E.

BILL BILL No. 106.]


Order for the Third Reading read.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.

On Question, Whether the said Clause shall stand part of the Bill? their Lord-said, he did not rise to oppose this meaships divided:-Contents 33; Not-Contents 24: Majority 9.


sure, which was probably more wanted now in Ireland than it had been at any former period. His purpose in rising was to ask, whether Her Majesty's Government were prepared to communicate to the House despatches from the Lord Lieutenant, or other papers, respecting the numerous assassinations that had been committed in Ireland during the last eight months, and the apparent inefficiency of the police to prevent such crimes; also whether it was intended to alter or relax in any degree the military habits and discipline now enforced in the constabulary; and also to ask, in how many instances the powers granted by the Peace Preservation (Ireland) Bill had been exercised during the last year by the Lord-Lieutenant? The noble Marquess said this was not a Bill which should be considered in the light of a continuance Act, and therefore he thought this a fitting opportunity to ask the questions of which he had given notice, for he should be glad to know whether anything had been done to effectually stop for the present and future the crimes so recently common in that country. The Government ought to communicate from time to time to the House such information as they possessed respecting the state and character of crime in Ireland, the measures taken to check it, and to express their opinion whether more effectual police regulations were not imperatively called

De Vesci, V.
Sydney, V.

Airlie, E. [Teller.]
Camperdown, E. [Tel-

De Grey, E.
Minto, E.
Portarlington, E.

Blantyre, L.
Calthorpe, L.
Digby, I..
Foley, L.

Moore, L. (M. Droghe-
Polwarth, L.
Rayleigh, L.
Redesdale, L.


Buckingham and Chan- Saint Germans, E.

dos, D. Newcastle, D. Somerset, D.

Normanby, M.

Rossie, L. (L. Kin-
naird.) [Teller.]
Silchester, L. (E. Long-
Stewart of Garlies, L.
(E. Galloway.)
Sundridge, L. (D. Ar-
Wynford L.

Dungannon, V.

Hutchinson, V. (E. Do
Melville, V.
Stratford de Redcliffe,


Crewe, L.
Egerton, L.

Somerhill, L. (M. Clan-

Granard, L. (E. Gra- Stanley of Alderley, L.
Overstone, L.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.

Vaux of Harrowden, L.
Wodehouse, L.

Clauses 23 to 32 agreed to.

Abinger, L.
Boyle, L. (E. Cork and
Chesham, L.

The Duke of Buccleuch

LORD KINNAIRD proposed to omit tuted a court of appeal, and to leave the the four following clauses, which constiappeal to the Quarter Sessions.

Clauses 33 to 36 struck out.
Remaining Clauses agreed to.

Report of Amendments to be received on Tuesday, the 17th instant; and Bill to be printed as amended [No. 96].

for. Their Lordships laboured under a want of statistics of crime in Ireland, which if furnished to them for the past year might serve to guide their legislation. It was not, however, his fault that the House was not in possession of full information, for he had repeatedly asked for judicial statistics, which the Government promised, but did not produce. A Return which he had obtained showed that crime was certainly not on the decrease in that country. As regarded offences of an ordinary and general character, the Irish people would bear favourable comparison with the most civilized nations. The total number of cases of crime reported to the police in April, 1861, was 341; in March, 1862, the number had increased to 436; but in April they diminished to 327. But, unhappily, the crimes known as agrarian outrages were increasing gradually and steadily. The Return to which he referred proved them to have nearly doubled within the last year or two; and that, too, without including the assassination of Mr. Maguire and Mr. Fitzgerald. The police had been praised in some quarters for arresting the murderers; but it would have been strange if they had not done so, seeing that in those cases the murders had been committed on the high road, and in open day, in the most daring manner. It was much to be regret ted also, that the justification or non-justification of these atrocious deeds had been discussed even in newspapers, from which such a thing was least to have been expected. As to "not parleying with assassins," as had been talked of elsewhere, why the acts of these men had been coolly argued as if their character admit ted of two opinions. He alluded more particularly to the murder of M. Thiebault; concerning which the brother of the person arrested for the crime had actually written to the Irish newspapers, not to endeavour to prove an alibi, or that the accused was innocent, but rather to show, that if he had not committed the murder, he ought to have done it. In Ireland about one in five offenders-taking grave cases-was brought to justice; in England only about one in nine of those committing similar offences escaped. In the one case the police were well organized for the prevention and detection of crime; in the other. the police were not efficiently organized with a view to either. If they would have a soldiery in Ireland, they should not call them a police. The constabulary were ex

cellent soldiers, but they were not constables, and they did not occupy themselves in the prevention or detection of crime. The expense of the Irish constabulary amounted to £779,000 a year; and if Government chose to pay that price for them, he must again admit they were a most admirable force, and he was very glad to have them in Ireland; but, with their barrack discipline and drill, they could not be expected to preserve the peace, and they were not allowed to act under the orders of the local magistracy, who had no constables at their disposal. In fact, the local magistracy were entirely debarred from control over the police. Since the Union, the great men of all parties had striven to connect the landed proprietors of Ireland with the Government of that country. That policy had now been departed from, and he hoped some member of the Government would favour their Lordships with an explanation on the subject. It was not reasonable to suppose that magistrates could do their duty if they were deprived of the services of the police. Many people believed that there was an organized system of Ribbonism extending through the whole of Ireland. He did not share in that opinion; but, if the fact were so, he wanted to know why the police had hitherto been unable to discover it? Too much was expected from the Roman Catholic clergy. No body of men had a greater horror of the outrages which had recently occurred in Ireland; but they were placed in a peculiar position, and it would not be right to call them to do more than they had done when they knew that the police would not protect them or any one else from popular vengeance. The whole question was one of great importance. It involved the character and credit of the Government, and he trusted their Lordships would have the pleasure of listening to a satisfactory statement from his noble Friend the President of the Council.

VISCOUNT LIFFORD said, he thought that the country owed a deep debt of gratitude to the Roman Catholic clergy, for the honest and sincere course pursued by them to put down Ribbonism, and to check the system of agrarian outrage. But he dif fered from his noble Friend, that Ribbonism did not emanate from one common centre; and he thought that where a magistrate did his duty fearlessly, the existing laws were sufficient to repress crime. could bear his testimony to the great skill and activity of the police in putting down


this crime. Within the last twelve months was therefore found expedient that they upwards of thirty Ribbonmen had been ar- should possess a more military organizarested in his district; and he felt persuaded, tion. In answer to the last Question, he that if the resident magistracy exerted had no objection to give the information themselves, they would receive the support for which his noble Friend asked-namely, of the Catholic clergy. He felt there was that the whole question of the Irish conreason to complain of the manner in which stabulary was under the consideration of the wishes and desires of the Irish gentry the Government, but that there was at had been disregarded by the Irish Govern- present no intention to alter the constitument. Such a course might have been tion of that body. proper fifty or sixty years ago, but certainly, at the present time, it was not cal-in reference to the complaint which had culated to strengthen the hands of the been made of the want of statistics relaExecutive. tive to offences in Ireland, that his experience enabled him to say that there used to be the most extensive amount of information afforded by reports from the constabulary and stipendiary magistrates.


THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE said, he should be glad to know whether the Government had received any information with respect to the probable cause of the recent outbreak of crime in Ireland. He had himself been unable to find any sufficient explanation of that unfortunate state of things. The great mass of the population were not at present placed in any such unfavourable condition as could account for the evil, and the only source he could think of to which it could at all be ascribed was the continuance of the agitation in reference to the land question. He cordially agreed with his noble Friend behind him (Lord Lifford), that the Irish Catholic priesthood discouraged in every way the secret and illegal societies; but he regretted to find that they had not at the same time discountenanced the land agitation. Parliament had already gone as far as it could go for the protection of the rights of the cultivators of the soil in Ireland; and the tenant-right question, if it now meant anything in that country, could only mean that the tenants should continue to hold their land without the payment of any rent. IIe entirely approved of that portion of the present Bill which enabled the Lord Lieutenant to send down extra police to any disturbed district, and to impose upon the inhabitants the cost of their maintenance. He believed that the enforcement of that provision would have a considerable tendency to prevent the continued perpetration of crime; but he doubted the expediency of keeping in force for an indefinite period that other enactment, by which the Lord Lieutenant was enabled to prohibit the carrying of arms without a licence. That provision, like all other exceptional legis

EARL GRANVILLE said, that it was, of course, a subject of the deepest regret and anxiety to the Government that these frightful murders should have taken place in Ireland; but he could not agree with the noble Marquess in his censures of the Irish constabulary. All the information which the Government received went to show that the Irish constabulary were a very well-conducted body of men, and that they not only possessed what might be called good military qualities, but that they constituted a very efficient police. Ribbonism existed in parts of Ireland, but it had no existence in the south of Ireland, and the outrages which had been committed were more of an individual character than the authorized proceedings of an illegal society. He could assure the noble Mar. quess that he was quite mistaken in supposing there was any unwillingness on the part of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to communicate and consult with the landed gentry of Ireland. The noble Viceroy was influenced by a feeling quite the reverse. In reply to the first Question of his noble Friend, he had to state, that the Government were not prepared to give those papers, which were documents of a confidential character, and which it would in any case be impossible to produce at the present moment when certain parties were about to stand their trial for those crimes. With regard to the second Question, he had to inform his noble Friend and the House, that the Government had no intention of altering the constitution of the Irish police force. It should be remembered that that force was placed in a very different position from that of the rural constabulary in England. In this country the policeman was certain of the sympathy and assistance of the people of the district in his attempts to prevent or detect crime, but the Irish constabulary had to discharge their duties among a less friendly population, and it Viscount Lifford

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The National

{JUNE 3, 1862}


lation, would be all the more effective if | completion of the telegraphic communica-
it were reserved for extreme cases only. tion between Scutari and Bagdad, a line
THE MARQUIS OF CLANRICARDE of Telegraph should be laid down from
said, it was the Dublin officials who baffled Bagdad to Kurrachee by the Government
inquiry; but if he were allowed to name of this Country or of India; whether it is
the man the necessary information would not the fact that the line from Scutari to
soon be forthcoming. He hoped the Go- Bagdad was completed, surveyed, and re-
vernment would insist upon having these ported on as fit for use by a British officer,
in December 1860; and whether it is not
also the fact that no steps have since been
taken by the Government of this Country
(or India) to continue the line of Telegraph
with the agreement of 1858?
from Bagdad to Kurrachee in accordance

Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE presented, "A Bill to authorize the Completion, after His Royal Highness Albert Edward Prince of Wales shall attain the Age of Twenty-one Years, of Arrangements commenced during his Minority, under the Provisions of an Act passed in the Session of Parliament held in the Seventh and Eighth Years of the Reign of Her Majesty Queen Victoria, intituled An Act to enable the Council of His Royal Highness Albert Edward Prince of Wales to sell and exchange Lands and enfranchise Copyholds Parcel of the Possessions of the Duchy of Cornwall, to purchase other Lands, and for other Purposes."

SIR CHARLES WOOD in reply said, a proposal had been made to the India Council to aid the establishment of a line of Telegraph between Singapore and Rangoon, but in his opinion it must be considered as part of some further line, and not as an independent line, simply for Indian purposes. With regard to telegraphic communication from Scutari to Kurrachee, an arrangement was made in 1858 by which a line was to be carried from Scutari to Bagdad, and, upon its completion to Bagdad,

thence to Kurrachee. A little more than

a year ago it was thought that it might
be advantageous to substitute for the sub-
marine portion of the line a land line
through Persia. Negotiations were ac-
cordingly set on foot with the Persian Go-
vernment, and it was only within the last
two or three weeks that he had heard that
those negotiations were not likely to have
any result. He was, therefore, not in a
condition now to
say what the Government
would ultimately determine to do, but in

Tuesday June 3, 1862.

bury, Ilen Robertson, esquire.
PUBLIC BILLS. -1° West India Incumbered some shape or other they would be bound
Estates Acts Amendment.

to complete a line through the Turkish
dominions to Kurrachee.

Bill read 1, to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday the 17th instant [No.


House adjourned at half-past Eight o'clock,
to Thursday next, half-past
Ten o'clock.

2° Tramways.

3° Sandhurst Vesting.




MR. J. C. EWART said, he would beg MR. MONSELL said, he wished to ask to ask the Secretary of State for India, the Secretary of State for War, When Whether any proposition has been made he intends to propose a Vote of Money to the India Council to aid the establish- for the purpose of carrying on the National ment of a line of Telegraph between Sin-Defences? gapore and India; and if so, what is the general nature of that proposition?

COLONEL STUART said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether an agreement was entered into in 1858 between the Government of Turkey and the Government of this country (or of India), for the construction of a line of Telegraph from Scutari to Bagdad by the Turkish Government; whether it was not also agreed between the contracting parties that, on the VOL. CLXVII. [THIRD SERIES.]

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he would state soon after the holidays what the intentions of the Government were on the subject.

LORD WILLIAM GRAHAM said, he also wished to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is a fact that some ten thousand pounds was given by Government for land at Sea View, near Ryde, for the purpose of erecting a fort thereon; whether that design has now been abandoned and the land is again for sale?



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SIR GEORGE BOWYER said, he would beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps, by representations in the proper quarter, to obtain redress for the alleged insults and outrages lately offered to a British Subject, the Archbishop of Rhodes, Bishop of Malta, in the Port of Messina? As the Archbishop was proceeding from Malta to Rome, the ship touched at Messina. As soon as it arrived, a number of boats surrounded it, full of men, who threw all kinds of dirt and rubbish into it. So hostile was the demonstration that the captain thought it necessary, for the safety of the ship, to steam out of the harbour at once.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I believe the hon. and learned Baronet has been misinformed as to the nature of the transaction. No doubt the ship in which the Archbishop had embarked was surrounded by boats, but the people in those boats threw words, and not mud, into the vessel. It was, undoubtedly, an offensive demonstration, and Her Majesty's Government have made a representation to the Italian Government, hoping that they would take steps to inquire into the matter, and that those persons who had so offended might receive such punishment as the law provided.

Lord William Graham


VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Sir, I rise, according to notice, to move that the House at its rising shall adjourn to Thursday next, and in moving that Motion I wish to avail myself of the opportunity to make one or two observations on the course of business which is about to come on. Up to yesterday afternoon Her Majesty's Government had reason to believe that the question upon which the House would be called on to deliberate, was a choice between different methods of expressing very nearly the same meaning and intention-namely, the meaning that all parties in the House are desirous that every practical economy should be enforced consistently with the due maintenance and proper efficiency of the several branches of the public service. But a Notice was given yesterday at the meeting of the House, which in our opinion entirely alters the issue. It is no longer a question of the relative value of substantives and adjectives. The question which the House will now be called upon to determine is, whether the Gentlemen who sit on these benches or the Gentlemen who sit on the opposite benches are best entitled to the confidence of the House and of the country. Sir, I say this, first, from the particular form of the Amendment of which notice has been given; next, from the quarter of the House whence it comes; and thirdly, from the character of the meeting in which we are entitled to assume it originated yesterday. Sir, we are quite prepared to enter upon that discussion. At the same time, we ought not to conceal from ourselves, and I am sure the House does not conceal from itself, the serious importance of that issue. We are of opinion, therefore, that it will be better for the House to go at once to the question fraught with serious and important consequences, instead of wasting time in discussing the comparative value of the Amendments which have been proposed. [*] Amendments, no doubt, deserving of consideration on any other occasion, but, as it appears to me, entirely superseded by the move made by the other side of the House. fore, without presuming to prejudge in what manner the House may deal with the Resolution of the hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld), or whether in disposing of it room may be left for any Amendment at all, my object is to suggest


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