the policemen would have to stand godfathers to most of these children. He (Mr. Newdegate) did not believe that any such function was contemplated in their engagement. The House could not hope to satisfy the foreign influence which actuated the Roman hierarchy in Ireland by concession: submission would only create confusion. He should, therefore, cordially vote with the hon. Member for Dublin for maintaining the simple provision of the law, which extended the protection. of the State to these poor children, who had been deserted by their parents, and who had no other provision, spiritual or temporal, save what the State gave them. MR. VANCE said, he would move that the Chairman report progress. SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman would not press his Motion. After seven hours' discussion they had got through two important clauses, and there was no reason why they should not continue the consideration of the Bill. MR. WHITESIDE said, he objected to proceeding with the Bill at that hour (12 o'clock). MR. O'BRIEN said, he hoped it would be known from what quarter the opposition to the further progress of the Bill proceeded. SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he would suggest that the clause under discussion should be adopted before progress was reported. He proposed to strike out the following clause, and at its next sitting, therefore, the Committee would, if his suggestion were acceeded to, proceed with the consideration of Clause 12. Mr. VANCE said, he had no objection to that arrangement. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 11 (Property hitherto exempt from Rating, as being used for charitable or public Purposes, to be rated). SIR EDWARD GROGAN said, he objected to the omission of the clause, and would move, that the Chairman should report progress. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask | leave to sit again.' The Committee divided:- Ayes 58; Noes 104: Majority 46. LORD EDWIN HILL moved, that the Chairman do now leave the chair. Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair." The Committee divided: — Ayes 54; Noes 102: Majority 48. SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he hoped the arrangement which he had proposed would be acceded to, now that the sense of the Committee had been twice taken. SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was quite sure that it was not the intention of his hon. Friend who moved that the Chairman leave the chair to put an end to the Bill. SIR GEORGE GREY said, he had no objection to report progress now. MR. WHITESIDE observed, that he had not been aware that Clause 11 would be struck out without any discussion. House resumed. Committee report Progress; to sit again on Monday, 16th June. ARTILLERY RANGES BILL. MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, he wished to know the extent of property above and below high-water mark that would be affected by the Bill, the rent to be charged, and whether the public could get compensation for the loss of fishing, &c., at certain times of the tide? SIR GEORGE LEWIS observed, that the hon. Member, although he had a very keen nose for questions of foreshore, was mistaken in that instance. The Bill was not intended to affect such questions, but merely to prevent accidents, by prohibiting vessels from anchoring within the line of fire. Bill read 2o, and committed for Monday next. House adjourned at One o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, May 30, 1862. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.-1 Crown Private Estates. 3 Customs and Inland Revenue. THE SLAVE TRADE-TREATY WITH THE UNITED STATES. OBSERVATIONS. EARL RUSSELL said, he could now inform his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), who had addressed to him a Question the other evening in reference to the slave trade, that Her Majesty's Government had received a communication from the Spanish Government, through our Minister at Madrid, stating that the Spanish Government were anxious for the suppression of the slave trade, and promising that they would continue to exereise every vigilance for the accomplishment of that object. But they did not make any allusion to the point to which his noble and learned Friend had referred —namely, that trading in slaves should be treated as piracy on the part of Spanish subjects. LORD BROUGHAM said, he had not the least doubt that the Spanish Government would use "the same vigilance as it had hitherto used;" but their previous vigilance was really no vigilance at all, unless, indeed, it was a vigilance in supporting and encouraging the slave trade rather than putting it down. What was desired was, that the Spanish Government should adopt the suggestion of their own officer, Marshal Serrano, who said that the way to suppress the slave trade was to make it piracy and punishable capitally, He had looked into the question of law, and he had no doubt that any person engaged in fitting out in England any vessel, ship, or boat to be employed in the slave trade, was punishable with fourteen years transportation. mated expenditure of the year amounts to exactly £70,000,000. It was taken at £70,040,000; but owing to the diminution, I believe, of some of the Miscellaneous Estimates, the charge for the year amounts to £70,000,000. The estimated receipts would have been £70,190,000; but there has been made a slight change, which will make a difference in the estimated receipts of £10,000, which will reduce the income of the year to £70,180,000, leaving a small estimated surplus of £180,000. That is a small surplus, undoubtedly-I admit, smaller than I think is generally desirable to maintain; and as that is a point to which the attention of the House is likely to be specially directed, I wish to say a very few words with regard to the surplus being so small this year before I proceed any further with the general subject. No doubt, in the usual course of events it is wise and prudent to have a larger margin for possible contingencies, any available surplus being devoted to the repayment of the national debt. But there are years when that is impossible-years when the country is engaged in war, and when it becomes an almost hopeless task to balance the income with the expenditure. The question I have, then, to ask your Lordships to consider is, whether there is anything in the present circumstances of this country to place the present condition of financial affairs in a somewhat intermediate condition; whether we are in such a perfectly normal state as to make it reasonable to expect that the usual rule should be applied; or whether there are not exceptional be satisfied with a less than usual surplus. circumstances which should induce you to I admit that if I fail to show that any ex CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL. ceptional circumstances attach to the pre [BILL NO. 78.] THIRD READING. Order of the Day for the Third Reading read. EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the Bill which I propose to your Lordships that you should now read the third time and pass, and in regard to which it was thought that the discussion might be much more conveniently taken on the present stage, is unquestionably a measure of very great importance, inasmuch as, on the one hand, it involves a very large amount of taxation on which the Estimates for the year have been founded, and, on the other, it contains many remarkable changes and improvements essentially beneficial in regard to our system of national finance. The esti sent state of affairs; if I also fail to show that there is any possible elasticity in the revenue; if I fail to show that, however great our expenditure may be, there is no reason to hope that it will be diminished, I shall fail entirely in showing that we are justified in not providing a very large sursurplus. I must observe, in the first place, that during the last three years we have had many adverse circumstances to contend with. One year we had a decidedly bad harvest, next year we had one far from good; and next year an event often vaguely prophesied, but by many deemed hardly possible, happened in the United States of America, most deplorable to themselves, and in its consequences to all the rest of the world with whom they were engaged in commercial relations; which not only deprived us of that supply of cotton so necessary to our manufactures, but diminished our exports to that country in one year by something like £12,000,000, and affected the commercial relations of nearly every country with which we are in the habit of transacting business. Besides this, within these three years we have had war —war with China, war in New Zealandand we have also had to make expensive preparations for a war which, thank God, has been averted, with the United States themselves. Taking the expenditure of 1858-9, and comparing it with that of the present year, the excess of expenditure owing to these circumstances during the last three years amounts to no less than £20,000,000. I do not think that demand was unwisely met by Parliament. I believe it has been provided for in a wise and prudent manner. Some extraordinary resources were drawn upon to meet a portion of the charge, chiefly by taking up the malt credit, the Spanish payment, and repayments of advances for works. The balances in the Exchequer were reduced £2,530,000. With regard to the diminution of the balances I may perhaps say a word. I have heard great objections made to the reduction of these balances, and I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself does not consider them sufficiently strong at the present moment: but they are sufficiently large to meet all the demands that are made upon them; and I believe there is practical economy in keeping them low, if they are capable of meeting the public requirements. The circumstances to which I have adverted show, I think, that the present is not a normal year. A portion of the £20,000,000 to which I have adverted was replaced by £6,500,000 arising from the extraordinary resources just mentioned. The other £14,000,000 was raised from taxation. Therefore I think the manner in which that demand was met was not unwise. There is another circumstance, which perhaps hardly bears on the question, yet it is one which should not be entirely overlooked. During that time we have increased the debt by £1,200,000 for fortifications; and on the other hand, we have redeemed debt to the amount of £4,000,000. I think, then, I have said enough to show that we are in an abnormal state in regard to our finances; and I now come to the question whether it is possible for the Government to entertain a hope that this great expenditure should be in any degree diminished. I believe I am expressing the opinion of the Government when I state in the strongest terms their feelings upon this point-their conviction that it is their paramount duty to provide for the effective defence of the shores of this island, and the protection of our commerce all over the world. Already, however, an important step has been made in the direction of reduction of expenditure. Comparing the estimated expenditure of the present year with the expenditure of 1861-2, there is a diminution of £1,833,000, and comparing it with the expenditure of 1860-1, there is a diminution in round numbers of £3,500,000, It may be said that this diminution is merely the result of the cessation of the Chinese war, and of the extraordinary expenditure for the defence of the North American provinces; but, deducting these two great sources of expense, I still find that the expenditure is reduced as compared with 1861-2 to the amount of £735,000, and as compared with 1860-1 to the amount of £1,361,000. Without venturing to prophesy how far further reduction can take place- although the Government of Her Majesty, when they believe it prudent and safe to do so, will in the highest interests of the country apply their best energies to diminish the burdens of the people-I must say that I do not think we have any reason to despair of further reductions in the public charges. With regard next to the question of the national income, nobody now feels any doubt of the wonderful clasticity of our revenue. While discussing a question of taxation last year, I called your Lordships' attention to the elasticity of our revenue under the financial system which has so happily obtained during the past twenty years. The more you reduce or the more you abolish Customs duties, the more buoyant they appear to become, and the larger the sum they yield to the Exchequer. Still more remarkable is the effect produced by the abolition-not the reduction, but the abolition of Excise duties. Bcfore the year 1858 there were twenty-seven Excise duties. Within the last few years fifteen out of those twenty-seven have been abolished, and already the remaining twelve produce a larger amount than the whole number yielded before. There is nothing in the present state of affairs to diminish your confidence, that when you reduce or abolish obnoxious taxes-imposts which press down our commerce and if it continues at the same rate as dumanufactures-the revenue will eventually ring the last four months, will amount to be no loser by your measures. During the £10,000,000 per annum, nearly equilast three years, notwithstanding large valent to the £12,000,000 to which reductions and remissions of taxation, the I have referred as having been lost produce of the remaining sources of re- during the last year in our trade with the venue has increased at the rate of about United States-I do think that we have £900,000 per annum. I think, therefore, every reason to congratulate ourselves we need not speak in a desponding tone of upon having agreed to that treaty of comthe prospects of our revenue under the merce, which, though at first objected to in existing financial system. many quarters, has produced such gratifying results. Under all these circumstances I am sure The total increase in our your Lordships will consider that the Go- exports to France, as compared with two vernment have exercised a wise discretion years ago, is 150 per cent. In cotton and in not asking the House of Commons for cotton yarns the increase is 300 per cent; further taxation at this moment-further in hardware and cutlery, it is 200 per taxation, not for the purpose of making cent; while in iron and steel, from which, both ends meet, but for the purpose of in consequence of the high duties still securing a large margin at a time when a maintained by France, little was expected, large portion of our population are endur- the increase also amounts to 200 per cent. ing great privation in a manner which is The increase in linen and linen yarns is 50 most creditable alike to themselves and to per cent, and in woollen yarns it is no less the country to which they belong. At than between 500 and 600 per cent. I such a period I think it would have been think these figures are most remarkable ; most inexpedient and most unstatesman- and if you consider what the parts of the like for the Government to propose, or for country are from which our increased exParliament to sanction, additional taxa- ports are made to France, you will see how tion, when we all naturally wish to relieve far they go to alleviate the distress which as much as possible the distressed people afflicts a large portion of the industrious of the manufacturing districts. The other classes of this country. It is a great day the noble Earl opposite spoke of the source of satisfaction to me to remember necessity of having a discussion upon this that up to the last moment the Legislature Bill in the present serious state of our has continued to remove all those painful finances. Considering some of the mat- restrictious which weighed so severely ters to which I have already alluded-upon our commercial and manufacturing considering, more particularly, the state of resources. They are nearly all swept civil war which now exists in North Ame- away, and we behold the beneficial result rica, and of which it is impossible to say in our increased trade with almost every what the result may be the question of part of the world, and in the impression our finances must be serious; and I have produced upon the poor population of our no hesitation in saying, that in my opinion own country. That portion of our populait is most important and desirable that our tion which is now suffering such severe dis. financial position should be fairly and tress know that they have nothing to comopenly discussed by your Lordships, when plain of in the conduct of the Government taking part, concurrently with the other or Parliament; they know that the LegisHouse, in passing a Bill of this sort. I lature is not to blame for any of those must deny, however, that there is anything unhappy events which are causing them so in the state of our finances, serious as I much unmerited distress, and which are admit it to be, calculated to cause alarm or owing to external causes; and to the feeldespair. It has been well said, that mis-ing thereby produced in their breasts, as trust has its dupes as well as over-confidence; and when I reflect how much we have to console us-when I look around and see the state of the country-when I consider all the redeeming features, even in the case of our distressed manufacturing population in Lancashire and parts of Yorkshire-when I observe the immense benefits caused by our increased trade with France an increase which, VOL. CLXVII. [THIRD SERIES.] well as to their own improved moral, social, and intellectual condition, I attribute the order, peace, and contentment which reign in the suffering manufacturing districts, and which, in their turn, have an important bearing upon the material prosperity of the country. My Lords, I believe that our revenue, founded upon a solid basis, is not in danger. I believe it was prudent not to attempt any innovation at the present time. F I believe it was wise in this Bill to renew | recollections of two years of unsatisfacthe income tax and the sugar duties attory finance. Be that as it might, their their former rates, to relieve an important Lordships still reserved to themselves the portion of the agricultural community by full right of either amending or rejecting commuting the hop duty, and to make any measure of this sort, or any measure some change, purely administrative, with of the kind that might come before them, respect to certain stamps and the admission throwing on those who had endeavoured to of wines. I believe this course to be pru- place them in this dilemma the responsident, and it is in this belief that I move bility of so doing. If the House of Comthe third reading of the Bill. I know it is mons chose to curtail its own privileges, not the intention of your Lordships to ob- and to merge half-a-dozen debates on as struct the passing of the Bill in any way; many different changes in a single debate but, at the same time, I trust that the dis- on a single Bill, their Lordships had no passionate debate of this evening will bring right to complain of their so doing. He out more clearly than ever that there is not went along with the noble Earl in thinking that ground for despair or alarm with re- the circumstances of the year exceptional gard to our financial position which appears and abnormal. He thought that no reflecto be entertained in some quarters. tive person could at this moment look either at home or abroad without a feeling of great anxiety. At home, whatever elasticity and recuperative power there might be in their finances, there was, he would not say a declining, but a depressed and suffering condition of trade. There was a scarcity of employment in one branch of industry, begetting distress, and that distress, however nobly borne, acting and re-acting on other classes Moved, that the Bill be now read 3a. THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, that the noble Earl, in discussing this Bill, had taken a somewhat one-sided view. It was perhaps, in one sense, the most im portant Bill that had ever been brought before their Lordships' House. It was a Bill which dealt with between £22,000,000 and £23,000,000 of public taxation, and on that ground alone was deserving their Lordships' most serious consideration. It-small shopkeepers, petty tradesmen, and was the largest Money Bill that had ever come up to their Lordships' House; and the noble Earl had not alluded to the fact that it came before their Lordships' House in a new, and he might almost say, an extraordinary manner. It embodied in its provisions an amount of taxation that had never been raised under any previous Bill. It had been the practice of late years to deal with these separate sources of taxation more or less in separate measures, and he did not think any ground of expediency had been shown for the change now made; but if their Lordships would remember certain circumstances within the last two years-the circumstances which had attended the repeal of the paper duties they would be at no loss to conjecture what were the feelings that had dictated this change. It was, in fact, the completion of the threat held out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer two years ago, when their Lordships, in the undoubted exercise of their right, interposed their veto upon what they considered a gratuitous and wasteful sacrifice of revenue under the precarious circumstances of the State. It was quite true that their Lordships did not now propose to resist this Bill; but he might question how far it was wise and dignified to revive instead of burying the small ratepayers, in a vicious circle. Nor, whether the amount of the stocks of cotton in America, or the amount of those available in England was considered, could there be said to be a prospect of immediate relief. Looking abroad, they viewed a scene disfigured with bloodshed or darkened by political doubt. Under these circumstances, what was the policy which reasonable men would pursue? He should say, after making full, ample, unequivocal preparation for the military and naval defences of the country, let them husband their resources, and allow, as far as possible, a margin over and above the foreseen disbursements of the year. In one word, let them take nothing for granted, but found every calculation on a basis as unfavourable as possible to themselves. The noble Earl had dwelt much on the exceptional character of the year and the elasticity of the resources of the country. But whilst the future is a subject of indefinite conjecture, from the past and the present alone can any safe inference be drawn in a financial debate. This elasticity of the national resources seemed to him (the Earl of Carnarvon) to be a collateral question, and he would not discuss it. He would accept from the Government their estimate of what was |