THE LORD ADVOCATE said, he could not consent to the clause, as it was generally objected to by the burghs.

Clause brought up, and read 1°.

Question put, "That the Clause be

read a second time."

The Committee divided: Noes 44: Majority 14.

House resumed.

Ayes 30;

EXPENSE OF PRIVATE BILLS.

QUESTION.

MR. R. HODGSON said, he wished to ask the Chairman of the Committee on

Standing Orders, Whether he intends to move for the appointment of a Committee for the purpose of ascertaining whether any alteration can be made in the conduct of Private Business, so as to diminish the expense now incurred by Promoters and

Bill reported; as amended, to be con- Opponents of Private Bills? sidered on Monday next.

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN: Sir, it is my intention to move for a Select Com

THE GERMAN LEGION AT THE CAPE. mittee to revise the Standing Orders of

QUESTION.

GENERAL PEEL said, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for War, Under what circumstances the sum of £19,385 158. 3d. was paid to the German Military Settlers at the Cape of Good Hope during the financial year 1860-1, which sum was not provided for by Parliament, and which was stated at page 4 of the Detailed Account of the Receipt and Expenditure of Army and Militia Services of that year to be one of the causes of the excess of expenditure on Vote 3 ?

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that the sum to which the right hon. and gallant Member referred was made up of excesses on Votes for the Land Forces in the year in question, which were transferred under the authority of the Treasury.

GENERAL PEEL said, that his question referred, not to the authority, but to the circumstances under which the payment

had been made.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that as the payment was not made while he was Secretary for War, he was not master of the circumstances. He would inform himself of them, and would then answer the question of the right hon. and gallant Member.

THE CORONERSHIP FOR MIDDLESEX.

QUESTION.

MR. BRADY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When the Writs for the Election of Coroners for Middlesex will be issued?

SIR GEORGE GREY said, that only one application had been made for the issue of a Writ-namely, for the central district of Middlesex. That Writ had been issued that afternoon.

the House; and if the House accede to my Resolutions connected with the Standing proposition, I intend to propose certain Orders which will have the effect of reducing some of the expenses of private legislation in this House. There are other expenses incurred in private legislation before Parliament which have no reference to Standing Orders. I am not in a position to investigate that subject, inasmuch as certain Returns which I moved for at the early part of the Session have not yet been furnished. Perhaps I may take this hon. Friend the President of the Board of opportunity of giving notice to my right Trade that on to-morrow I shall ask him why the Returns having reference to the expenses incurred by Railways and other Companies in private legislation have not

sooner been furnished to the House.

MR. HADFIELD said, he would beg to ask whether the contemplated changes would include any diminution of fees to the Officers of the House?

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN: Some

of the fees are dependent on the Standing Orders of this House, which will be under the cognizance of the Committee I shall have the honour to move for. But there are other fees which can only be investigated by a Committee having the power of examining into the whole question.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH asked whether the hon. Gentleman intended to move for the Committee this Session?

COLONEL WILSON PATTEN: I shall

give notice this evening of my intention to move on Thursday.

FOREST LANDS.-QUESTION.

MR. TORRENS said, he rose to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, What steps have been taken by Her Majesty's Government to preserve the rights of pasture,

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he had explained at the time to the hon. Member that the request for delay was made in consequence of a communication from the Earl of Chichester, the Chairman of the Commission.

cutting wood, recreation, and any other MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, it rights long enjoyed by the poorer foresters was rather hard on his hon. Friend, who and the public in the various parcels of had given notice of his Motion a month land wherein the rights of the Crown are ago, to get such an unsatisfactory reply. reported to have been sold by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests within the Forests of Epping, Woodford, Waltham, and Wanstead, in the several Reports of 1856, 1857, 1858, 1859, 1860, and 1861, more especially in the following five Lots, -namely, one Lot of 434 acres, sold on the 1st of August, 1856, to one individual, for £1,891; one Lot of 325 acres, sold on the 17th of April, 1857, to two individuals, for £1,353; one Lot of 695 acres, sold on November 25th, 1858, for £3,349 to one individual; one Lot of 168 acres, sold on the 14th of January, 1859, to one individual, for £900; and one Lot of 1,377 acres, sold June 22nd, 1860, to one individual, for £5,468? And if no steps have been taken for the preservation of the rights referred to, will the Government undertake to do so?

MR. PEEL said, the rights which had been sold were altogether forestal rights connected with deer, and were transferred to the owners with the lands out of which they arose. Supposing the rights to have any existence, the Government had taken no steps to extinguish them; neither had they taken any measures to ascertain their existence. The Government had acted throughout under the advice of the Law Officers of the Crown.

MR. TORRENS said, he wished to know whether they were now prepared to take any steps which might be necessary for the preservation of those rights.

MR. PEEL said, he did not believe that any such steps were in contemplation.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

RETURN MOVED FOR.

MR. HOPWOOD said, he rose to move for a Return of Grants, &c., by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in the year 1861. He had put a similar notice on the paper a month ago, but abstained from pressing it then, in consequence of a representation made to him that it would occasion considerable inconvenience.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed. A Committee was now sitting, within the scope of whose inquiry the information asked for clearly came; and until that Committee made its Report, it was undesirable to call for such voluminous Returns.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, that in his opinion the information asked for was very valuable, and that the House ought to insist upon any return which could throw light on the proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Commission. He hoped some assurance would be given by the Government, that when the plea of inconvenience no longer held good, the Returns would be granted.

MR. CARDWELL said, there was not the smallest desire to withhold any information. It was simply a question whether the trouble and expense of printing these Returns separately ought to be incurred, when they might be included in the proceedings of the Committee.

MR. HOPWOOD said, that he scarcely felt inclined to withdraw his Motion. Some of the information asked for in the Returns, especially with regard to the order of necessity in the judgment of the Commissioners, would be very valuable. Many gentlemen would be glad to offer large benefactions if they knew what was likely to become of them. On those points the Report of the Commissioners was not at all satisfactory.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, that he hoped the Government would not decline to grant the Returns. A great deal had been said about the expense of printing Returns; but when the matter was looked into last year, it was found to be comparatively a trifle.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, the matter stood thus. The House having appointed a Select Committee to inquire into the whole question of the Ecclesiastical Commission, the question was, whether they would order the Returns before the Report of that Committee was presented. The Committee might probably be already in possession of the information required, or of such information as might render the Returns unnecessary. The usual course was, when a Committee was appointed, to abstain from inquiry until the Report was presented.

MR. HADFIELD said, that he sup

ported the Motion, and would support any MR. DEEDES said, that observations Motion calculated to enlighten the minds had frequently been made in that House of the Church party, and stimulate their as to the expense of the Commission. A zeal. great deal of outlay was incurred by the MR. KINNAIRD said, that he, as a preparation of returns, which, when furmember of the Committee, was under the nished, were never made use of, or found impression that the information asked for to be of the slightest value. It was for would be found in the evidence given before the House to determine whether they would the Committee, which would shortly be refuse returns of the kind, which required published. a great deal of time and attention to prepare, and which were attended with considerable expense. He hoped the House would not assent to the Motion of his hon. Friend.

MAJOR EDWARDS said, that he hoped his hon. Friend would insist on the Motion There were large charities belonging to the borough he had the honour to represent, and an impression existed that they were not fairly distributed. The fact was they were under the management of one

party.

Return ordered, "of Grants, &c. for 1861, by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as follows:

CHURCH RATES.-RESOLUTION.

"You

sent Session. Those persons said, have gained a certain amount of success; MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, why are you not contented with it?" On that he rose for the purpose of sub- the other hand, it was said, "Why do you mitting to the House certain proposi- proceed to push your advantage in an untions by which he thought the law re- fair manner? Why do you by this Resolating to church rates might be bene- lution, which you allege to be conceived in ficially settled. He had been under the a conciliatory spirit, endeavour to continue impression that it would not be com- evils which you pretend to remove?" petent to him to move the Resolution of Those representations came from two perwhich he had given notice without going fectly distinct and different parties in that through the preliminary form of moving House, from neither of whom he expected that the House resolve itself into a Com- sympathy or aid; but he thought, on the mittee; but, understanding from good one hand, it was impossible for Parliament authority that no such preliminary step was to allow the law relating to church rates to necessary, he believed it would be more remain exactly in its present position, and, convenient to the House that he should on the other hand, he thought Parliament move his substantive Resolution while the was not likely ever to consent to the settleSpeaker was in the chair. He hoped the ment proposed by some hon. Gentlemen in House would permit him to preface his that House-namely, the total abolition of Motion by a few observations, seeing that church rates. Under those circumstances he was engaged in the dangerous task of he ventured once more to ask the attention endeavouring to make peace between con- of the House, while he endeavoured to show tending parties. He was blamed on both that the proposition which he was about to sides. He was blamed by those who have the honour to submit to them was a thought it was indiscreet on his part to step in the same direction as that taken by move in this matter again during the pre-him some six weeks ago, when they were

In

good enough to sanction his proposal. As | advantage; and he remarked that rehe understood it, the differences that ex- sponsible seat-holders ought to be required isted on the subject of church rates was either to pay for their seats or to relinquish this:-The Nonconformist complained that them. Admitting the force of much that he was expected and required voluntarily to was said in favour of such a system, he was give his vote for the levy of money in a not himself in favour of pew-rents, and case where he contended he had no interest for this reason, because while in a large in the outlay. The grievance of the Church parish there was necessarily a great incwas this:-That whereas, undeniably, there quality in the position of the parishwas a charge on the property of this coun ioners, pew-rents would impose an equal try to perform certain obligations, the contribution. In a large parish all the ocmachinery which the law allowed for giving cupants of the different pews were virtually effect to that obligation was often illusory, on an equality, and to call on them to pay and in some cases incapable of being put the same sum appeared perfectly fair; but in practice, and that, under all the circum- in a country parish there would be the stances, the duty was not performed in a squire and half-a-dozen great farmers, satisfactory manner. What were the means and all the rest would be poor men. which had been suggested for the removal such a parish the payment by pew-rents of those grievances? There was, in the would obviously fall most unequally. first place, a proposal-satisfactory in one Though he very much deprecated the sense-to substitute for church rates a fixed introduction of the principle of pew-rents, payment chargeable on property; but, yet he must say, on the other hand, that judging from the little progress made with in town parishes, and in places where a the Bill of the hon. Member for Warwick- system of pew-rents had been devised by shire (Mr. Newdegate), he did not think the inhabitants for their own use, and there was any inclination on the part of the where no objection was taken to this mode House to adopt a scheme of that kind. of raising the necessary funds year after His own wish was to make as little change year, he did not see any good reason for as possible, and, for that reason, he would taking any step to hinder those parishes rather try whether they could not improve from managing their own concerns in the the existing machinery. Another plan was way most convenient to themselves. The to provide resources for the maintenance vice of an Amendment which it was inof the fabrics by means of pew-rents. That tended to move to his Resolutions was that was met by the objection that it was the it was not universally applicable, and he glory of the English Church to give every did not think that it would be acceptable one a right to enter the building in which to the House as a substitute for a universal its services were performed without being charge equally applicable to all parties. subjected to payment. He was as much A third means by which it was suggested averse as any one could be to charging a necessary funds could be provided consisted poor man for a seat in a church; but he in a voluntary rate. A great deal was to could not disguise from himself the fact of be said in favour of a voluntary rate; but its being found in practice that pew-rents the objection to it was, that it would subwere a great convenience in a large num- stitute for an ancient charge, applicable ber of churches, and he was going to say in one sense or other to all property, a in every subsidiary chapel in this country, resource, which might be universal in its as a means of maintaining the fabric of the application, but with respect to which church or chapel. The incumbent of a there could be no certainty that its applichurch in one of the large manufacturing cation really would be universal. Such a towns, where no church rates were levied, voluntary rate was open to two objections. wrote to him stating that there were in his One was that with the best intentions and neighbourhood four episcopal chapels main- arrangements, when the voluntary rate came tained by pew-rents, while no one could to be applied to the same population, such tell how the mother church was maintained. as was to be found in a country parish, the The writer was unable to raise money by drawing of a line of distinction between pew-rents, and, consequently, was placed Dissenters and Churchmen could not be at a great disadvantage. He further ob- avoided. Another objection was that in served, that pew-rents being permitted in small parishes there would be a chance some rich parishes, poorer ones ought not that no funds would be raised at all. Let to be spoken of in a disparaging tone when them take the case of a parish where there they asked for the enjoyment of a similar were half-a-dozen farmers who looked care

fully after every shilling they were called their opinion taken as to whether or not on to pay. One of them, perhaps, never they would pay church rates. His object on went to church, and refused to pay the the present occasion was to ascertain the rate. His neighbour might not be a very opinion of the House on the proposed religious man, but still accustomed to go substitution of owners for occupiers, withto church; yet he might alter this habit out calling for a decision with regard to when he saw that his pecuniary interest the mere details of machinery. He asked lay apparently in the direction of the neg- the House to affirm the principle that the lect of religious services. The more he rate should be purely voluntary; that the thought upon the subject, the more he rate, being voluntary, should also be adewas persuaded that the only mode by quate to discharge the parochial obligation; which the voluntary rate ought to be in- and that the churchwardens should have stituted by that House was by putting it power to make an appeal to the owners of on such a footing as to exempt persons property to provide necessary funds. He from the obligation of paying, whether did not desire the House, in agreeing to Churchmen or Dissenters. A great deal his Resolution, to affirm anything more had been said in the course of last Session than the main question and the principle about personal exemption, but the plan he involved in it. What would be the posinow offered to the acceptance of the House tion of parishes if his Resolution were was, he thought, an improvement upon adopted? No change would, in fact, take that proposal. He wished that every oc- place in the form and machinery now cupier should be exempt from the obliga- familiar to the public. In parishes where tion of paying the rate, and that the refusal church rates were now voted they would to pay should imply nothing as to the be voted still. In parishes where no church opinions which the person refusing might rates were levied the same objection would entertain. He started with the proposition probably continued to be manifested. The that the present law should be altered and owners would probably refuse, in the that the rate should be purely voluntary; same way that the occupiers now did, to but he thought, that at the same time, vote the sum required. It was one of the the House should make provision for the great advantages of the alteration he prosustentation of the Churches in cases where posed that it would require no change of the voluntary rate should prove insufficient machinery. The only difference would be for its purpose. There was only one way that the rate which was now enforced could by which, in his opinion, this latter object not then be recovered. It would then be could be effected, and that was by charg- in the power of the parochial authorities, ing the owners of property instead of the if they thought proper, not only to raise occupiers. This was no new scheme, but the amount required by voluntary subwas one referred to by the Select Com-scription, but to make an appeal to the mittee of the other House in their Report. owners of property in the parish. What It was true that the Committee did not would each party lose and gain? The virtually recommend it; but they said, Churchman would give up a law which he however, that it was worthy of the atten- should be almost justified in asserting to tion of Parliament. He had received on be perfectly inoperative at the present mothis subject a number of letters in which ment-a law enforced by a process so the writers said, that as the owners of difficult, laborious, and uncertain that it property constituted a smaller amount of scarcely once led to a legal result. The persons than the occupiers, their object Churchman would retain the principle which was merely to diminish the number of he held in common with him, and which he discontented persons. This was not the trusted the House would never give up— case. What he sought to have affirmed namely, that it was a duty incumbent was a principle, which he thought intelli- upon the owners of property to maintain gible and easy to work. No one disputed the means of public worship, and to take that payments made by occupiers were care that their poorer neighbours had the outgoings taken into account when houses opportunity of attending Divine service. or lands were leased, and his proposition The Churchman would also gain thisamounted to this, that that should be done that the compulsory rate would be condirectly which at present was done indi- fined to the owners of property, and that rectly. The only point of difficulty was the rate levied upon them would be colhow to devise the machinery by which the lectable by the proper officers, which was owners might be collected together and not the case with the present rate. VOL. CLXVII. [THIRD SERIES.]

2 K

The