United States, and he replied that there hands of parishes, and transferred it to an was no precedent for such a demand. irresponsible body. He thought it would The result was the British Government be best that the Bill should be sent by failed to obtain the redress they sought their Lordships to a Select Committee. from the American Government. HIGHWAYS BILL-[BILL No. 93.] SECOND READING. Order of the day for the Second Reading read. LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, he believed it was now thirty-one years since a noble Friend of his, now present, proposed a Bill in the other House of Parliament to amend the law relating to highways. Since that time there had been frequent attempts to legislate on the subject, and a Bill had at length successfully passed the other House of Parliament, and was now brought up to their Lordships' House in a shape which ho trusted would secure their approbation. It had been carefully investigated by a Select Committee of the House of Commons. It was very desirable to establish some system by which they could secure the formation and maintenance of good roads throughout the country. The principle of this Bill had already been adopted with great success in South Wales, where the roads had been considerably improved and the expense had not been increased. The mode of procedure proposed to be enacted under this Bill was, that any five justices of the county might present a requisition to the Court of Quarter Sessions, and the court might make an order requiring that the whole county; or any part of the county, might be formed into districts. That provisional order had to be confirmed at another Court of Quarter Sessions, and the additional confirmation of the Secretary of State was then required. Power was given to appoint a paid surveyor and a paid treasurer, and each parish was to appoint a waywarden, in the same way that the surveyors of highways were appointed now. He would not go further into the details of the measure, which could be more appropriately considered in Committee; but he trusted that on the present occasion he should receive the assent of their Lordships to the second reading of the Bill. The LORD PORTMAN said, that great efforts, in which a noble Duke opposite and himself had borne a part, had been made in former years in the other House of Parliament to pass some such measure as the present, which was urgently needed. Bill was little more than an enlargement of some clauses which were now the law; but the area of management was not suffi ciently large. It was extremely desirable that this measure, which had come down from the House of Commons, should be considered and amended by their Lordships, if it required amendment, and he hoped that it would become law this Session. To refer it to a Select Committee would not be a convenient mode of discussing it. Two or three of the clauses demanded careful consideration, which could be bestowed upon them in a Committee of the Whole House. On the whole, the Bill would, he believe, tend to give the country better roads than it had at present, and at a much less cost. THE DUKE OF RICHMOND agreed very much in what had fallen from the noble Lord who spoke last as to the neces.. sity of passing some such measure as this, and could corroborate from his personal knowledge the statement that its subject had received a considerable degree of attention from the other House of Parliament. Concurring in the principles of the Bill, he thought that all the Amendments necessary to make it a good and useful measure could be made in Committee of the Whole House. LORD LYVEDEN was glad to see a Highway Bill that had some chance of passing, because it had also been his lot, in common with many others, to labour in this cause without success in the House of Commons. He believed that no Bill would be effectual that was not compulsory; but he was willing to see this measure adopted, because it would extend the area of management and give them surveyor with larger districts under their charge. Improvement in this respect was urgently called for in his own county, which paid £37,000 for the repairs of its highways, and yet the greater part of them were impassable in the winter. Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY ob- THE EARL OF CARNARVON said, he jected to the Bill, on the ground that it thought this essentially a Bill of detail, took the power of taxation out of the which could be more conveniently dealt with in Committee than on the second | he was glad to observe the general disporeading. He perfectly agreed in its gene-sition of their Lordships in favour of the ral principle, but there were one or two principle of the Bill. He should be happy points which deserved consideration at the to consider any suggestions that might be present stage. The mode in which it was made to simplify or improve its machinery. proposed that the parishes should contri- Motion agreed to. bute to the common highway fund, was in some respects very objectionable. The average expenditure incurred by each parish during the three preceding years was the basis on which its contribution RED SEA AND INDIA TELEGRAPH BILL. was to be computed. That rule would [BILL No. 70.] Bill read 2 accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday, the 30th instant. BILL RE-COMMITTED. On Order of the Day for the Third Reading, operate most unfairly towards those pa- ORDER FOR THIRD READING DISCHARGED. rishes which had made a large outlay upon the improvement of their roads, while it would let those parishes which had neglected their duty go almost scot-free. The second point to which he wished to advert related to the power which the Bill would give the Secretary of State over the order of the Court of Quarter Sessions in respect to the new highway districts. This he thought interfered too much with the local management. The order must be submitted to the Secretary of State before it was binding; but what could the Secretary of State know of the necessities of the various localities? Such an interference was not only unnecessary, but would be mischievous, inasmuch as it relieved the justices of a responsibility which fairly belonged to them. At the same time, he must say, there could be but one wish on the part of their Lordships-to make the measure as practicable as possible. THE MARQUESS OF BATH thought the present law quite sufficient for all practical purposes. The remedies when a road got out of repair were ample; but the fact was that persons refrained from indicting bad roads because of the odium they would be certain to incur. All that was really necessary to accomplish all they desired was that some officer should be appointed to go over the country, and where the roads were found out of repair to indict the parties liable. The Bill would only entail unnecessary expense, supersede local authority, and increase the influence of the Secretary of State's office. LORD LYTTELTON maintained that a measure of this kind ought to be compul THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, it had been objected on a previous occasion that the Bill gave the sanction of Parliament not merely to the old, but also to the new Company; and with the view of meeting this objection he now proposed to omit the three first lines of the 1st clause, which confirmed the arrangement between the two Companies, and to insert a recital of the arrangement which would be set out in the schedule, and which was embodied in the Treasury Minute. The effect would be to give the sanction of Parliament to that part of the agreement between the two Companies which required such sanction, and the transfer of the property and the conversion of the money payment given by the statute. THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN was anxious that the new agreement should be produced. It might be the best or worst agreement in the world, but which he could not tell until he had the opportunity of seeing it. LORD REDESDALE defied anybody to see how the matter stood by looking at the Correspondence; and he complained of the loose way of transacting business of this kind by Treasury Minute which referred to Correspondence as embodying the agreement. The more business-like way would be to have a regular formal agreement prepared, though he could understand that Companies preferred having informal arrangements, because they knew that the result was that it would tend to their interest and against that of the public. Another circumstance was that probably the parties interested would not be satisfied with the alteration now proposed. own opinion was that the Bill should be recommitted in order to introduce the Amendment, because the effect of this His would be to give the parties interested an | sponsible if the telegraph was not in workopportunity of seeing the precise shape in ing order? He believe that such a clause which the Bill would pass. was in the contract embodied in the Treasury Minute, and he would therefore ask the noble Duke to lay that document on the table. LORD WODEHOUSE joined in requesting their Lordships not to read the Bill a third time until they had seen the agreement set out in a clear and intelligible form. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, it was only intended to give the sanction of Parliament to that part of the agreement which required its sanction. It was supposed that expressions were used in the preamble and clauses which left it ambiguous, and he proposed to strike out the words to which exception had been taken. The Bill had passed through the Commons without objection, and it threw no additional burden upon the public funds. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL said, the original agreement, signed by Lord Derby and Mr. Disraeli, was already printed in extenso in an Act of Parliament. The present arrangement was simply with a view to make the best of a bad bargain ; for, so carelessly was the first agreement drawn up that there was no doubt that the Government had bound themselves to pay £36,000 a year, whether the telegraph was laid down successfully or not. There was not the slightest wish on his part to conceal any documents which bore directly or indirectly upon the subject; and, in conformity with what appeared to be the wish of the House, he would consent that the Bill should be now recommitted with a view to its being reprinted with the amendments he had suggested. Order of the Day for the Third Reading read, and discharged; and Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House. LORD LYVEDEN agreed in the objection that had been taken as to the difficulty of ascertaining what the agreement really was. He objected to indirect allusions to engagements entered into by the Crown. They ought to be clearly and intelligibly stated. Private companies were fond of loose agreements; and if difficulty occurred, the Crown was called upon as a point of honour to make good every expectation. EARL GREY trusted the noble Duke The Report thereof to be received on Monwould adopt the suggestion of the Chair-day the 27th instant; and to be printed as man of Committees, and recommit the amended [No. 109]. Bill. The Committee might be adjourned for a few days, and the Government would then have time to look into the matter. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL thought there was no necessity for this; but still, if noble Lords were of a contrary opinion, he had no objection to postpone the Bill again. THE LORD CHANCELLOR recommended their Lordships to accede to the suggestion that the Bill be recommitted, in order that they might have full informa. tion upon the subject, and be enabled to agree upon such amendments as would prevent the necessity of the Bill being rejected by the House of Commons. THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, the jealousy he felt was that the Treasury, or any public Department, should have the power to make agreements involving a large expenditure of public money without bringing them before Parliament. The province and duty of the House of Commons he had always understood to be to inquire into such questions as these. THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE asked whether the Government were in a position to oblige the contractors to fulfil the clause of their agreement, which made them re House in Committee; Amendments made: House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, half-past Eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday, June 19, 1862. MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.-1o Chancery Regu- 2o Portsdown Fair Discontinuance. EMPLOYMENT OF NAVAL OFFICERS IN CHINA.-QUESTION. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that the services of Captain Sherrard Osborne, or of any other Officer of Her Majesty's Navy, are to be placed at the disposal of the Chinese Government; whether such Officer will be paid by the Chinese Government, and whether he will, at the same time, retain his commission and continue to receive pay as an Officer in Her Majesty's Navy; and whether one or more Gunboats are to be lent to the Chinese Government for any purpose they may think proper? MR. LAYARD said, that application had been made, on behalf of the Chinese Government, for the services of Captain Sherrard Osborne and other officers. The subject was under the consideration of the Government, but he was not aware that any decision had yet been come to upon it. He did not know that any gunboat had been lent to the Chinese Government? MR. BRIGHT: By whom was the application made, and when? MR. LAYARD: By the agents of the Chinese Government in this country. THE ARMY IN CANADA.-QUESTION. COLONEL W. STUART said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether a free passage will be granted to the wives and families of officers who were sent out to Canada during the past winter, or any other allowance be made to enable them to join their husbands in Canada ? whether he can place a Document on the table of the House, showing the amount of such charge under Contract at each of the fifty-five places? SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, if the hon. Baronet would move for a return upon the subject, he should be happy to lay it upon the table. SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to ask if the right hon. Baronet will state the gross amount? SIR GEORGE LEWIS: What the hon. Baronet asked for is the details, and it would be more convenient and satisfactory to the House to lay these details on the table in writing. I can give the gross amount at any time that it may be convenient to the hon. Baronet. BARRACK-MASTERS' ALLOWANCES. QUESTION. COLONEL FRENCH said, he rose to ask the Secretary of State for War, Whether, in the Revised Warrant for Barrack Masters now under consideration, the officers, whose ages vary from sixty-five to eighty, and who may under its provisions be expected to retire, will be included in the improved retiring regulations? SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that arrangements were at present in progress for sending out the wives and families of SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, the subsoldiers who had been sent out to Canada,ject was under the consideration of a Comand accommodation would be provided inmittee who had not yet made their Report, the same ship for the wives of officers. and he was therefore not able to say what the recommendations would be, but he understood their attention had been di THE JAPANESE TREATY.-QUESTION. THE NEW REGIMENTS.-QUESTION. SIR ANDREW AGNEW said, he wish-rected to the subject to which the question ed to ask the Secretary of State for War, of the hon. and gallant Member referred. Why the Officers of the 19th, 20th, and 21st Hussars, and of the regiments of Infantry from the 101st to the 108th inclusive, are not gazetted; it being understood that all these regiments are embodied, and that the officers of most of them have been appointed and have performed their regimental duties for a considerable time? SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that the Indian Government were organizing these regiments, but the officers could not be gazetted until the rolls were received in this country. FORTIFICATIONS.-QUESTION, SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY said, he wished to ask the Secretary of State for War, What amount of public charge is created by Contract at the fifty-five places stated in Parliamentary Paper No. 267 of this Session, where Contracts on account of Fortifications have been made; and MR. WHITE said, that as the Japanese Ambassadors had left this country, he now wished to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Ports of Japan will be open to British commerce in conformity with the Treaty with the Japanese, or whether the opening is to be postponed; and if so, if he will tell the House why? MR. LAYARD said, Her Majesty's Government had consented to defer for a period of five years, to commence from the 1st of January, 1863, the fulfilment of those portions of the 3rd article of the treaty between Great Britain and Japan, of the 26th August, 1858, which provided for the opening to British subjects of the ports of Neagata and Hiogo, and for the residence of British subjects in Yedo and Osaca. The other obligations of the Treaty would be fully enforced; but the 3rd arti- MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS, &c. MR. BENTINCK said, he perfectly agreed with his hon. Friend in the opinion that the Bill was a good Bill, but that it did not go far enough. Still, he did not think it was expedient to press the Amendment. There was no doubt of the advantages of the voluntary system of pilotage, but it was impossible to make great and preci pitate changes without doing mischief. He thought the hon. Member might be satisfied with having persuaded the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, to introduce the small end of the wedge, and in time the country would come round to the opinion that the voluntary system was the best. [BILL NO. 136.] CONSIDERATION. Order for Consideration read. MR. LINDSAY said, that as a whole he was well satisfied with the Bill, and he wished to thank his right hon. Friend for having introduced the measure, as he believed it would be of great service to the shipping interest. At the same time, he MR. HORSFALL said, he hoped the regretted that his right hon. Friend had House would not adopt the clause proposed not dealt with the question of compulsory by his hon. Friend the Member for Sunpilotage. He regretted that it had not derland. He would remind them that his been swept away in every port in the hon. Friend had appeared amongst them United Kingdom. The Committee upon as the representative of the shipping intethis subject had reported that wherever a rest. He brought forward a long list of system of voluntary pilotage prevailed there grievances suffered by that interest, and was an abundant supply of pilots. Take moved for a Committee to inquire into the cases of Cork and Falmouth. He be- those grievances. While the Committee lieved that about the same number of ves- obtained by the hon. Member was sitting, sels which called at Falmouth called at no less than nineteen or twenty shipCork. At the former the system of pilotage owners were questioned on the subject was compulsory, and there there were only of compulsory pilotage, and only four of thirty-six pilots; but at Cork, where it is those were found to support the view of his hon. Friend. perfectly optional with the master of a vesOf those four, two were sel to take a pilot, there were 303 pilots. constituents of the hon. Gentleman himself. He brought forward that statement in Not satisfied with that, his hon. Friend answer to the argument that any great brought forward a clause in Committee to change in the existing state of things would do away with compulsory pilotage in every have the effect of reducing the number of part of Great Britain. When the quespilots and jeopardizing life and property. tion of the adoption of that clause was put At Sunderland the system of pilotage was to the vote, only two Members of the Comvoluntary, and they had no lack of pilots. mittee supported the hon. Member for They were to be found in all weathers on Sunderland. With that decision of the the look-out for ships, and they might Committee against him, his hon. Friend frequently be seen as far down as Flam- had now the modesty to come to the borough Head. But at Falmouth the House and ask them to adopt his preIn the Bill before pilots did not trouble themselves about conceived opinions. going any distance to look out for ships, the House there was ample provision for because they knew they would be paid doing away with compulsory pilotage in whether their services were brought into recases where it was shown to be objectionquisition or not. He would therefore moveable. As regarded the port of Liverpool the insertion of the following clause "That the masters and owners of all ships, or of any classes of ships, shall not be obliged to employ pilots in any pilotage district, or shall not be obliged to pay for pilots when not employing them in any district, or in any part of any pilotage district." Clause brought up, and read 1o. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Clause be now read a second time." -where the system was compulsory-it was the only port in the kingdom to which special reference was made in the Report as having the pilotage in a satisfactory state. He trusted the House would reject the clause. MR. HODGSON said, that the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Horsfall) had not told the House the reasons given by shipowners for their evidence in favour of compulsory pilotage. Mr. Duncan Dunbar |