only go to those sources which are always upheld by them as reliable. When the Minister in charge of these Estimates does not condescend to inform the Committee of any particulars concerning his Department, or his administration, or the policy governing the Department, we are, perforce, obliged to look to the press, and any other source, for the information required. We have no other means at our disposal. We cannot go behind the Minister's back to the officers of his Department, and ask for the information, because if we did he would charge us with doing something underhand. When we ask him straightforwardly here for the information we cannot get any satisfaction, and so we are thrown back upon the press, which may or may not be accurate. We can only quote what is stated in the press, and try to probe and find out if the information is accurate. The only person who can supply us with proper information is the Minister, who is asking us to vote money for carrying out what appears to us at present to be a careless, ineffective, incompetent, and, in many respects, extravagant administration of the public finances. We have not yet had a policy announced by the Government in regard to the Northern Territory. When we were asked to take it over, it was pointed out that one of the urgent needs of the Territory was the settlement of population. It was represented that it was too big a problem for South Australia to manage, that she had expended huge sums, and incurred great liabilities in respect to the Territory which she was not able to finance. We were asked, not only to take over the Territory, but also to recoup South Australia for the whole of the money which had been lost, and the whole of the liabilities which she had still to meet in connexion with the attempted development of the Territory, so far as it had gone, and its administration. We have done that on the good faith of those who put forward those grounds, and who urged as a further reason that the question of defence made it imperative that this portion of Australia should be peopled at the earliest possible opportunity, in order that we might have effective occupation rather than run the imminent risk of invasion at any time. What has been done in the matter of attracting population? Since 1910 we have had a Ministry with a splendid majority behind them, with funds rolling in more rapidly than was ever the case before. They have had more than double the revenue that any previous Go

vernment had; they have had " money to burn,” as I see some Labour people in Western Australia have stated as a reason why they should have applied to the Government for employment. What have they done to develop the Northern Territory? It is as empty as when they took it over. Mr. PARKER MOLONEY.-You did nothing with it for ten years.

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-The honorable member has not been in Parliament very long. Had he been following Federal politics before coming here, he would know that the Territory was not taken over by the Commonwealth until this Government came into office, and that, therefore, we had no control over it, as it was then under the South Australian Govern ment. It has had the Territory for upwards of two and a half years, and what has it done? It has sunk something like three-quarters of a million there, but what is there to show for the money? A few Socialistic experimental farms, employing a few hands at pottering about, but giving no practical settlement or developmental results! There has been no attempt to advertise the resources of the Territory so as to attract people there. The Commonwealth is as much exposed to invasion to-day as it was when South Australia had the Territory. Mr. Howe. Where are you going to put population?

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-Where were we going to put population when we took over the Territory? There are millions of acres crying out for development, and population should be put on them. Thousands of persons are brought to this country yearly to increase the population of already congested areas around the metropolitan centres, while the wide spaces of the Northern Territory are left unoccupied, and a source of danger, because a temptation to invasion by those Eastern nations, whose territories are overflowing with people, and who are looking for new fields. The estimate of expenditure for this year is no less a sum than £848,500.

Mr. RILEY.-Dear me !

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-The honorable member seems to think that a small matter. What is a million pounds to him? Our friends opposite can fritter away millions. They have £22,000,000 to fritter away this year, although preceding Governments had to be content with £8,000,000, and less. But they apply their "Do not worry" policy. They know that the public has to pay, so they do not

care how the money is spent. They consider the representatives of the people impertinent because we ask how the money is being spent, and desire to exercise control over its expenditure. We recognise the need for expenditure, but we acknowledge our duty to our constituents, which is to see that that expenditure is wise and pro

per.

The expenditure of this Government on the Northern Territory, and in many other directions, is not wise nor prudent, nor is it justifiable. There are some 117 officials in the Northern Territory who are being paid fairly high salaries £300 and upwards, and, in some cases, are provided with residences. But could they keep out an Asiatic invasion? Do they effectively Occupy the Territory? We wish to know what is the policy of the Minister for the development of the Territory? Have any steps been taken to secure a considerable number of immigrants? Is money to be frittered away year after year merely to keep a few defeated Labour candidates in fat billets? I should not object to defeated Labour candidates being pitchforked into billets at high salaries if they had the qualifications necessary for the performance of the duties with which they are intrusted. But we have no indication that they possess these qualifications, and, in some instances, at least, the possession of these qualifications by them has been called into question. Provided that they are qualified for the posts they are given, I would not object to such appointments as long as more qualified men were not debarred from the chance of getting appointments. Government is only playing with the development of the Northern Territory. It is not dealing with it in a statesmanlike way. After two and a half years, we are no further forward than we were when the Territory was in the hands of South Australia.

The

Mr. THOMAS.-Why two and a half years?

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-This Government came into power in 1910, and we are now nearly at the end of 1912.

Mr. THOMAS.-When was the Territory taken over?

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-An Act was passed in 1910, which has been administered wholly by this Government. During this period, it has done nothing to develop the country, and the Minister in charge of the Territory has not told us what is the policy of the Government in regard to it. We tried to get information

from him when dealing with the Budget, and again when the Works Estimates were under discussion, but failed on each occasion, and appear likely to be unsuccessful

now.

Mr. PAGE.

If at first you don't succeed,
Try, try, try again.

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-The honorable member would say, "Do not worry." It is our business to worry. The increasing of expenditure means the imposition of more taxation on the backs of Labour, a prospect which we cannot view without serious alarm. We shall not always have seasons of unexampled prosperity, though I wish that we might.

Mr. PAGE. Do not be a calamity howler.

Mr.

ELLIOT JOHNSON.-As soon as the note of warning is struck, and honorable members are reminded that prudence is necessary in times of prosperity to guard against ill effects in times of adversity, we hear about calamity howling. But even at the risk of being called a calamity howler, I venture to point out that we are drifting into dangerous waters, that we cannot expect this period of prosperity to continue for ever, that there are not wanting indications of a change, and that it is time we called a halt. It is time that we understood where all this huge financial expenditure will land us. I do not mind a large expenditure so long as we know that we are proceeding upon safe lines.

The CHAIRMAN.-The honorable member's time has expired

Mr. W. ELLIOT JOHNSON.-Under the circumstances, I must reserve what I have to say for my second lap.

Mr. GROOM (Darling Downs) [10.12]. -Will the Minister report progress now? Mr. THOMAS.-Not yet.

Mr. GROOM.-Then there are one or two matters to which I wish to direct attention in connexion with the administration of the High Commissioner's office. desire to ascertain whether the Minister intends to appoint an efficient produce expert?

Mr. THOMAS.-I understand that the honorable member is discussing the Department?

Mr. GROOM.-Do I gather from the Minister's reply that he has not come to a decision upon the matter?

Mr. THOMAS.-The honorable member should proceed with his speech. These matters are dealt with in the Estimates.

As

Mr. GROOM.-I take it that the Minister has turned down this proposition. it affects the primary producers, naturally it has not received from him the sympathy that it might be expected to receive from others. The administration of the Government has been marked by an absolute disregard of the interests of the primary producers. Not one Act has been placed upon the statute-book for their benefit.

Mr. WEST. The honorable member knows that that is untrue.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-I rise to a point of order. The honorable member for West Sydney stated that the honorable member for Darling Downs knew that his statement

was untrue.

The CHAIRMAN.-If the honorable member for West Sydney made that remark, he must withdraw it.

Mr. WEST. When the honorable member for Darling Downs made a statement which was not correct, I made the interjection complained of. If it is considered disorderly, I withdraw it.

Mr. GROOM.-The High Commissioner properly recognises that one of his functions is to do what he can to forward the interests of Australian producers in Great Britain and foreign countries. In his report, he points out the enormous advance there has been in the export of our products. He says

The progress of this branch of Commonwealth trade in three leading lines can be seen in the following comparison :

The world-wide competition for the British market in most lines of production should stimulate, I think, both public authorities and private enterprise to co-operate to the greatest possible extent, in order to advance the reputation of Australian products, and increase the demand for them, in the British Isles.

It would be a great help if the services of an efficient produce expert were placed at my disposal. I use the term "expert in this connexion to denote a man who not only possesses practical knowledge, but is also thoroughly well qualified by business training to grapple with trade difficulties and deal with the markets and large traders in this country, on at least an equal footing of knowledge, smartness, and capacity.

I would ask the Minister to give careful consideration to that suggestion.

Mr. THOMAS.-There is £5,000 upon the Estimates for the development of the Australian export trade upon the Continent.

Mr. GROOM.-But the High Commissioner needs the services of an expert officer. A sum of £5,000 might well be utilized for advertising the resources of Australia. I would remind the Minister of the strong plea which was put forward by the honorable member for Illawarra that assistance should be provided in the High Commissioner's office with a view to opening up new markets in the Old Country. In his reply, will the Minister say whether he has any policy in that respect? I observe that on these Estimates only £20,000 is appropriated for advertising the Commonwealth.

Mr. THOMAS.-This Government is the first Government which has expended £20,000.

Mr. GROOM.. I am glad to hear it. But considering that it is the first Government which has had a High Commissioner, the expenditure shows that the Department has not grown as rapidly as the development of the office justifies. It is upon this point that the High Commissioner has made a complaint. I am sorry that some attention has not been given to it, because the sum set down upon these Estimates in this connexion is exactly similar to that which appeared on the Estimates of last year. The High Commissioner points out that

In advertising the Commonwealth in Great Britain and on the Continent, it will, I believe, be found advisable to arrange two distinct schemes-one aiming at securing an increasing tide of emigration to Australia and a greater volume of investments and further enterprise, the other seeking to promote a better knowledge of the range and quality of Australian exports, with a view to promote an increasing demand for our products in British and foreign markets. The High Commissioner also points out that, with the funds at his disposal, it is impracticable to include a vigorous and businesslike campaign for advertising our food products. That is a very strong appeal, which I am sure honorable members will all view sympathetically, that the Minister should place on the Estimates a substantial sum in addition to £20,000.

the

Mr. THOMAS.-We are doing very well; the honorable member for Flinders will be on the honorable member's track shortly.

Mr. GROOM.-The Minister will not get over the matter in that way.

5346

Mr. PAGE.-The honcrable member for Darling Downs will go to the country and say that the Government are extravagant.

Mr. GROOM.-I shall unhesitatingly The do so, because it is absolutely true. revenues have been expended in useless ways; a large sum is given to a Labour newspaper here or there to advertise immigration, and yet money is refused to advertise our products on the English markets.

Mr. PAGE.-I shall quote this on Darling Downs against the honorable member.

Mr. GROOM.—And I hope the honorable member will tell the people frankly how the money is expended, and that he does not believe in this Government providing means for advertising the primary products of his own constituents. However, I hope the Minister will see that something practical is done, because it is ridiculous to ask the High Commissioner to make reports with expert knowledge, and then to turn down every suggestion he offers for the advancement of the Australian people.

Progress reported.

NORTHERN TERRITORY LANDS ORDINANCE.

Mr. THOMAS (Barrier-Minister of External Affairs) [10.23].-I move

That order of the day No. 3 be read and discharged.

A new Ordinance has been drafted, and, therefore, it becomes necessary to move the discharge of this Order of the Day from the notice-paper.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-What facilities shall we have for discussing the new Ordi

gance.

Mr. THOMAS.-It will be laid on the table, and, if no one objects within fourteen days, it will become law.

Mr. JOSEPH COOK.—We must object in

order to raise a discussion.

Mr. THOMAS.-Just so. The Government have promised that every facility shall be given within a short time for the discussion of any objections raised.

Mr. GROOM (Darling Downs) [10.25]. -The Minister is to be congratulated on the step he has taken, and the repeal of the Ordinance justifies the action of the Opposition in moving its disallowance. am glad that the Minister recognises the serious defects of the old Ordinance, and

I hope we shall have an opportunity at the earliest possible date to discuss the new one. Question resolved in the affirmative. PAPERS.

Mr. THOMAS laid upon the table the following papers :Papua-Ordinances of 1912—

No. 10.-Supplementary Appropriation 1909-
10, No. 7.

No. 11. Supplementary Appropriation 1910-
II, No. 8.

No. 12.-Supply (No. 2) 1912-13.

House adjourned at 10.27 p.m.

Senate.

Wednesday, 13th November, 1912.

The PRESIDENT tock the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers.

NORTHERN TERRITORY LANDS ORDINANCE.

Senator MILLEN.-Will the Vice-President of the Executive Council give the Senate an opportunity of discussing the new Lands Ordinance for the Northern Territory, seeing that the only way in which it can be done, unless the Government afford such an opportunity, will be by placing on the notice-paper a motion to disapprove of the Ordinance, which would be tantamount to a challenge to the Go

vernment.

Senator MCGREGOR.-I do not know how I can do other than lay the Ordinance on the table of the Senate, and then any honorable senator will have the right to take whatever action he may think to be necessary. I would remind the honorable senator that on the motion for printing the Budget-papers, any matter outside the ordinary business of the Senate can be ventilated.

PAPERS.

Senator McGREGOR laid upon the table the following papers:

Northern Territory.-Crown Lands Ordinance

1912.

Papua.-Ordinances of 1912

No. 10.-Supplementary Appropriation 1909. 10, No. 7.

No. 11-Supplementary Appropriation 191011, No. 8.

No. 12.-Supply (No. 2) 1912-13.

MILITARY

FORCE: CAPTAIN
LYONS.

Senator MCDOUGALL.-Has the Minister of Defence had brought under his notice the reports in the Sydney press regarding military chaos, and if so, has he seen the following passage in the Daily Telegraph of the 11th inst:

Captain Lyons, whose crime is said to have consisted of "not assisting the Q.M.G. to the extent he might have done," has asked for a court-martial to investigate the charge, but it is understood that his request has so far been entirely ignored.

Is it a fact that Captain Lyons has asked for a court-martial, and that his request has been ignored, and, if so, why?

Senator PEARCE.-The reports in the newspapers have come under my notice, but as the cases are pending, I do not propose to make any statement about them at the present stage.

HIGH COMMISSIONER'S OFFICE. CASE OF MR. SAVAGE.

Senator MCGREGOR (South Australia -Vice President of the Executive Council) [3.7] Before the Orders of the Day are called, sir, I ask leave to make a state

ment.

Leave granted.

OC

Senator McGREGOR.-On many casions Senator Long, no doubt with the best of motives, has called attention to the position of a public servant in London, Mr. Savage. Of course, it was impossible, when he last referred to the matter, for me to get the information in time to deal with it when I was replying on the motion for the adjournment; and consequently I have sought this opportunity to make a statement. In 1906, there was no High Commissioner, and Captain Collins was then appointed to represent the Commonwealth in the Commonwealth offices there. It would have been impossible for Captain Collins to carry out all the work, and, therefore, an application was made that an officer with special knowledge in connexion with the purchase of stores, and other matters of that description, should be appointed to assist him. As Mr. Savage was employed in the Defence Department at that time, and connected with that very kind of work, and as he was also anxious to obtain the position, and was a suitable officer, he was, with Captain Collins, appointed in 1906 to the Commonwealth offices in London. It is the custom, I understand, that when [195]-2

an officer visits England, or Europe, or America, or any foreign country on temporary business, he is given a travelling allowance equal to that which a public servant in his position would get in other circumstances. When Captain Collins and Mr. Savage were appointed, the appointments were understood to be permanent. They understood that they were to be connected with the Commonwealth offices. They were not in the position of an officer of the Defence or any other Department, going to England for a few weeks and then returning. The very fact that Captain Collins and Mr. Savage were there for four years would indicate that the latter's was a fairly permanent temporary appoint

Senator LONG.-He was the only officer who went to London who did not receive an allowance.

Senator MCGREGOR.-He was the only officer who went in the same circumstances as Captain Collins. There was no other officer who went to London with the idea in his mind that his appointment was of at permanent character. The reason why Captain Collins and Mr. Savage were not permanently appointed in 1906 was that there was no High Commissioner, and the offices could not be established on 2 thoroughly permanent basis until 1910, when a High Commissioner was appointed.

justify the previous conduct. Senator LONG.-You are hard pushed to

done, Captain Collins and Mr. Savage were made the permanent officers at the Commonwealth offices, in the position they filled when they went there first. I do not want to use any hard expression which would offend Senator Long, because I believe that he is doing his duty.

Senator McGREGOR.-When that was

Senator LONG.-You might as well, because I am used to it.