hoped the honorable gentleman would have gone further, and said not only that he would in this case permit our vessels to defend themselves, but to make good prize of any vessel which should impede the trade admitted by the laws of nations. But the gentleman had stopped short of this.

SENATE.

we may now trade to Spain and Portugal-because Great Britain permits us. [Mr. LLOYD observed that he had not said we could trade there because Great Britain permitted it.] I know the gentleman did not say that (said Mr. S.) but it is my inference. He said we might trade there. I By the Orders in Council, now made law (said deny it. I beg the gentleman to recollect what Mr. S.) all neutrals-all neutrals, this is a mere passed some time ago, between Lord Hawkesbury word ad captandum, as it is well known, there and Mr. King. and see what reliance can be placed is no neutral commerce but American-all Ameri- on the promises of British Ministers. On a repcan vessels, then, bound to France, or countries in resentation made by Mr. King on the subject of alliance with her, are made good prize in the Brit- the colonial trade, Lord Hawskesbury agreed, proviish courts. When bound to any part of the con- ded the vessel carrying produce from the colonies tinent of Europe, or any possessions in Turkey or should go to the United States and reland her cargo, Asia, they are a good prize, Sweden alone ex- that she should not be liable to capture. What cepted. We are then permitted to trade-for it was the consequence? One year afterwards priis a permission to trade, since we must acknow-vate instructions were given to the British cruiledge ourselves indebted to her for any she per-sers to take such vessels, and every atom of this mits we are graciously permitted to go to Swe-produce was swept from the ocean. If this is the den. to which country our whole exports amount manner in which Ministerial promises have hereto $56,157! This petty trade is generously per- tofore been fulfilled, what reliance can be placed mitted us as a boon, and this boon will be struck off on them now? By letters from my correspondthe list of permission, the moment any difference ents, I learn that three merchants engaged in the arises between Great Britain and Sweden. I am American trade had waited on Mr. Canning to aware, sir, that gentlemen will say this may re- see whether American vessels might trade to quire explanation. I will give it to them. Great Spain and Portugal. Yes, Mr. Canning anBritain says you shall not trade to any of the swered, they might trade in the produce of their countries I have interdicted till you have my own country. But the King is authorized to vary leave; pay me a duty, and then you may go to these laws, and give permission to trade with any any port; pay me a tribute, and then you shall country when he pleases. Has he given any such have my license to trade to any ports you choose. permission to trade with Spain? No. Is then What is this tribute? Not having the documents the mere conversation of Mr. Canning a sufficient before me, I may make an error of a fraction, but security? No. Is it anything like as binding as in the principle I am correct. On the article of that formerly officially given to Mr. King, and flour, they tell us, you may bring flour to Great which was violated? Certainly not. Can this Britain from America, land it, and, if you re-ex- then be a safe trade? No, sir; my informant, port it, pay into our treasury two dollars on every who was one of the merchants who waited upon barrel. For every barrel of flour which we send Mr. Canning, says that should France, now warto Spain, Portugal, or Italy, where the gentleman ring with Spain, overrun any part of the country, from Massachusetts has correctly told us much of and our vessels afterwards attempt to enter, not it is consumed, little of it being used in Great having heard of it, they would be good prize. I Britain or France, you must pay two dollars be- am not learned in the law, but I will ask this sides your freight and insurance. And this trib-question of those who are: Would not a British ute is to be paid for a permission to trade. Are gentlemen willing to submit to this?

judge in this case be obliged to abide by the law, instead of the conversation of Mr. Canning? He certainly would; and would give our Minister in this case precisely the answer which the French Council of Prizes gave General Armstrong, that the opinion of an individual could not contravene the express stipulation of a positive law.

On the article of wheat, exported, you must pay in Great Britain a duty of, I believe, two shillings sterling a bushel, before it can be re-exported. On the important article of cotton they have charged a duty on its exportation of nine pence sterling per lb., equal to the whole value of the article itself in Georgia or South Carolina. This is in addition to the usual import duty of two pence in the pound. Thus, if we wish to go to the Continent, we may go on condition of paying a tribute equal to the value of the cotton, in addition to risk or insurance. It is generally understood that two-thirds of the cotton exported by us, may be consumed in England, when all her manufactures are in good work. On the remaining third the people of the Southern country are subject to The honorable gentleman last up has said that a tribute on twenty millions of pounds, at the the exports of the United States to Spain and Porrate of 17 cents per pound. Let this be calcula-tugal were twenty millions of dollars. The gented, and it will be seen what tax we must pay for leave to sell that article.

But, says the gentleman from Massachusetts,

The gentleman last up told us that American flour was selling at forty-seven shillings a barrel in England. The gentleman knows that flour carried there, and not entered for re-exportation, cannot be removed. Flour in that situation has been lying ten or twelve months in London, could not be exported, and is somewhat injured by age, having been locked up in the stores of England, without a possibility of exporting it; and it is this that sells at that price.

tleman's arguments were applied to Spain and Portugal. The exports to Spain and Portugal, and all their possessions, including the immense

SENATE.

The Embargo.

NOVEMBER, 1808.

exports to La Vera Cruz, amounted to something Mr. S. concluded by saying that he had not near this sum. But let us take the gentleman on meant to take up so much time of the House-he his own ground, and see what we could carry on had meant merely to state his ideas of the situaof this trade, in our domestic product, if the em- tion in which we were placed by the edicts of the bargo were removed. The whole exports of the two belligerents. He wished to place it in such United States, in the produce of the land, the year a point of view that gentlemen might be led to ending in October, 1807, were $18,509,502; of adopt such measures as might best secure the inwhich, the proportion to Spain was $1,131,281; terests of the country. Mr. S. said his own private to Portugal, $829,313. I agree with the gentle- interests pressed so heavily on his mind, that he man, that, if the embargo was off, we might carry could scarcely trust himself to decide. He had on a very lucrative trade with the Spanish colo- therefore submitted these ideas to gentlemen nies and the Brazils, if we had the materials to whose feelings were not thus affected, that if they carry it on. They do not want our flour, but might think proper, with the honorable gentlearticles which can now no longer be got-goods man, to take off the embargo, he might join with imported from Germany, and nankeens and cot-them; if not, that some other might be adopted ton goods from India. But these are not the prod- which would lead to the security of our peace and uce of our country, to which the gentleman allud- honor. ed; and I say that the exports of our domestic produce to the colonies and islands of Spain (Cuba alone excepted) are very small. Great Britain will not let us go to Germany to get German goods, and therefore we cannot carry them as we were accustomed to do. But perhaps we shall be told we may carry British goods. What does the gentleman say, as a merchant, to paying double freight, duty, and insurance, and then competing with England in the sale of her own manufactures? We have done it heretofore, because Great Britain was excluded from that trade, Confine the trade then to Spain and Portugal, supposing it to be free, and it will not amount to two and a half millions altogether. We are to say to Great Britain, If you will give us the boon of going to Spain and Portugal, (and perhaps this is but an ignis fatuus to lead us to her prize courts,) we will submit to your tribute elsewhere.

The English Orders had told us we might trade as usual with the West India islands; but now, believing no doubt that this Government has not strength or energy in itself to maintain any system long, what has she done? Proclaimed a blockade on the remaining islands of France, so that we are now confined to British islands alone! We are restricted from trading there by blockade, and what security have we, that if the embargo be taken off for I wish it were off: no man suffers

more from it, in proportion to his capital, than I do; but I stand here the Representative of the people, and must endeavor to act in such a manner as will best secure their interests; and I pledge myself to join heart and hand with gentlemen to take it off, whenever we can have a safe and honorable trade-that, from our submitting to these interdictions, as a right of Great Britain, she may not choose to interdict all trade, she being omnipotent, and sole mistress of the ocean, as we were told by the gentleman from Connecticut. I have seen a late English pamphlet, called "Hints to both Parties," said to be by a ministerial writer, to this effect: that Great Britain, having command over all the seas, could and ought to exclude and monopolize the trade of the world to herself. This pamphlet goes critically into an examination of the subject; says that by a stroke of policy she can cut us off from our extensive trade; that she has the power, and, having the power, she ought to do it.

Mr. POPE said, that in the observations which he had made a short time ago, he had no intention to violate the decorum of debate; and if he had discovered warmth on the general subject, he hoped no gentleman would consider his remarks as personally applied to him.

Mr. LLOYD said he rose for the purpose of making a single observation. He had stated, when up before, that the trade to Spain, Portugal, and her colonies, took off about twenty millions of dollars. He found, by the report of the Secretary of the Treasury. that the exports to these countries amounted to upwards of seventy millions, excluding a large portion of the trade.

Mr. SMITH said he understood the gentleman to apply his arguments to our domestic exports to Spain and Portugal only, and not their dependencies, which the gentleman might, however, have meant to have included.

The Senate adjourned about half past 2 o'clock.

TUESDAY, November 22.

The bill, entitled "An act to authorize the conveyance of certain papers and documents by the mail, free of postage," was read the second time, and referred to Messrs. ANDERSON, MOORE, and FRANKLIN, to consider and report thereon.

The Senate resumed the second reading of the bill to reward Andrew Joseph Villard, for an invention of public utility.

Ordered, That it be referred to Messrs. THRUSTON, TIFFIN, and BRADLEY, to consider and report thereon.

THE EMBARGO.

The Senate resumed the consideration of the motion made on the 11th instant for repealing the "Act laying an embargo on all ships and vessels in the ports and harbors of the United States, and the several acts supplementary thereto."

Mr. POPE.-Mr. President: I rise with more than ordinary diffidence to address you on the interesting question under consideration. When I consider the present state of our country-embarrassed with difficulties; menaced with dangers by foreign nations; our ships captured and burnt by one Power, captured, condemned, and confiscated by the other; a storm gathering in the East, which threatens to burst upon us with rebellion and dis

This earnest and fervent call on the Government by the commercial interest was promptly obeyed by the Administration. The course pointed out by the memorialists was pursued; a special mission was immediately sent; this new "That your memorialists have observed with no principle, as well as other violations of our maricommon degree of surprise and solicitude, the numer- time rights, were resisted with energy and ability, ous embarrassments which the commerce of the United and every effort made to obtain a redress of injuStates has suffered, during the present war with Eu-ries, and to place our commerce upon a just and rope and the Indies, arising from the adoption of new honorable basis, as must be evident to every man principles by the Admiralty Courts of Great Britain, as who has read the documents communicated to

SENATE.

The Embargo.

NOVEMBER, 1808.

Congress during the last and present session. I force at that time, if then officially known to our shall pass over the different decrees and orders of Government, would not have been a sufficient the two belligerents from 1805, until the Fall of cause for the embargo? And if they admit that 1807. I will pass over the affair of the Chesa- the whole, combined, would have justified the peake, which called forth such a burst of indigna- measure, at the same time that they deny it to tion throughout this country. In December 1807, have been wise, they are constrained to acknowlduring the last session of Congress, the President edge that it was at least fortunate. If the danwas officially informed, that Bonaparte had deter- gers to which our commerce was then exposed mined to extend his decree of Berlin to American rendered the measure proper, how can gentlemen commerce, and although not officially notified, seriously contend that while those dangers conhad every reason to believe that the French de- tinue, it ought to be removed, without proposing cree had been or would be retaliated by the Brit- some more efficient measure as a substitute? ish Orders of Council. The President thus warn- We are told, however, that the avowed object ed of the dangers which threatened our commerce of this measure was to secure our property and on the high seas, communicated the subject to seamen from capture, and that it was represented Congress by a confidential message, recommend- to the two belligerents as a measure of precaution, ing an embargo, to secure our vessels and seamen not as a measure of coercion or hostility. It is from capture. His advice was attended to; the in its nature a precautionary measure, and it was measure was adopted. I expected, or at least the duty of the President to represent it in that hoped at that time, that this measure, besides se-light to foreign Governments; and whatever incuring our property, by its pressure on the bellig- conveniences may result from it, they cannot, by erents, aided by a conciliatory course on the part the law of nations, consider it as a measure of hosof our Government, would have induced an ami- tility. Yet the gentleman from Connecticut tells cable adjustment of differences with both or one us triumphantly that it has not only failed to proof the belligerents, and thereby averted the calami- duce any effect upon foreign nations, but that it ties of war; that if it failed to produce this effect, never will operate as a measure of coercion. If it would at least afford us time to prepare to meet the gentleman does not think this measure the war, if inevitable. That our Administration has best that can be devised, and that some other used every honorable meaus during the existence would better suit the present state of things, it is of this measure to settle our differences amicably certainly his duty to propose it, and not to press with the belligerents, cannot be doubted by any a negative proposition calculated merely to cenone who has read the documents accompanying sure, to find fault. I sincerely lament that this his recent message. After the Administration measure has not been productive of all the good had pursued the course marked out by the com- effects anticipated. But, sir, although it has not, mercial people, whose organs the gentlemen in owing to numerous evasions and violations, tothe opposition appear to be on this occasion-after gether with other causes, induced foreign Powers resisting the unjust pretensions of France and to discontinue their depredations and restrictions Great Britain-after the Government had laid upon our commerce, it does not necessarily folan embargo and brought the nation to the eve of a low that, if persevered in and properly executed, war for the maintenance of our maritime rights- it would not produce this effect. It is some conwhat do we hear? We are told by a part of these solation to the friends of this measure that it has same people, to the astonishment of all America, been productive of some good. It has prevented by solemn resolutions, which are already before a large portion of our property from falling into the public, called the Essex resolutions, that we the hands of the belligerents, it has preserved have no cause of war against Great Britain, and peace and afforded us time to prepare for war, if all her aggressions, if not justified, are excused; this sad alternative must be resorted to. The and our Government is gravely told to disgrace gentleman from Connecticut and the gentleman itself by receding from the ground it has taken. from Massachusetts do not appear to agree as to The gentleman from Connecticut, whose object the effects of this measure. The gentleman from seems to be rather to prove this measure wrong Connecticut contends that it had no effect, while at first than what ought now to be done, tells us the gentleman from Massachusetts informs us that the French decree of Berlin was not suffi-that it had a very considerable effect on Great cient to justify this measure at the time it was adopted, because France had no naval force to give it effect on the high seas. If the Berlin decree was not sufficient to justify our embargo, upon what principle can it be pretended that it justified or even palliated the British Orders of Council? Although at the time the embargo was laid we had every reason to believe that the orders had issued, and which turned out to be the fact, yet I will admit, for the sake of argument, that the Berlin decree was not a sufficient ground for the embargo. Will gentlemen contend that the Berlin decree, British Orders of Council, and the French decree of Milan, all which were in

Britain in May or June last. If it has at any time had an effect upon either of the belligerents, it proves at least that its advocates did not miscalculate as much as the gentleman from Connecticut would induce the world to believe. The gentlemen have cited a French exposé, to prove that the embargo is approved by that Government; this document I have never seen, and cannot, therefore, comment on it; and the gentleman might have proved by Mr. Canning's letter, that Great Britain is not dissatisfied with it, if the sincerity of such declarations is to be confided in.

The gentlemen have not explained their object in referring to this document; was it to prove

NOVEMBER, 1808.

The Embargo.

SENATE.

lege. Now, sir, it appears to me that we must resist their decrees and orders by war, non-intercourse, or we must submit. Are we to be told that honor and independence are out of the question, and that we ought to submit to disgraceful conditions for the sake of trade, because we shall make money by it? Surely not.

that it did not operate on France, but did upon Great Britain, or that it had no effect upon either? If it was their design to prove by this document that France is reconciled to bear the inconveniences of this measure herself, on account of its more severe pressure upon her enemy, which may be the fact, it establishes the very reverse of what the gentlemen contend for. They have However the gentleman from Connecticut and endeavored to prove that it has had no effect, nor myself may differ in other respects, I concur with will have any upon either. We have been told him in opinion that we have nothing to hope that we have been commanded by one Power to from the friendship or justice of the belligerents, make war upon the other; that it has been the and that the most efficient means of coercing policy of both belligerents to draw us into the them is by operating on their interest. If, then, contest, is evident; and if our embargo has ena- his position be correct, that our only means of bled us to resist their dictatorial mandates or in- bringing Great Britain to terms is to affect her sidious policy, it is fortunate for this country. It interest, and if it is true, as is generally believed, has been said that we had as well give up our that our commerce is very advantageous to Great ships to the enemy as let them rot in our har- Britain, shall we not, by suspending that combors. I think very differently. I would rather merce, operate on her interest, and will not her have them sunk in the ocean than give them up interest induce her to do us justice, in order to to enrich cur enemies. There is something of renew it? The gentleman from Connecticut has principle concerned in this. [Mr. LLOYD said he told us that our embargo, with the aid of a nonhad not expressed this idea; he had said that it importation act, would produce no effect, because affected the national wealth no more that the the West India planters can convert their sugarvessels should be lost at sea, than that they should plantations into cornfields, and that therefore they rot at the wharves.] Mr. P. said he considered could not be starved. Does the gentleman supthe present contest, between us and the bellig- pose any man of common sense ever believed erents, not merely as a question of profit and loss; that this system of starving, as it has been called, there was something of principle, honor, and in- would destroy the belligerents? No, sir; it was dependence at stake, and he was not disposed to expected to operate upon their interest-the only calculate how much money would be gained by way in which the gentleman tells us they can succumbing to a foreign Power. This is not the be coerced. If, as the gentleman supposes, the question with Congress or the nation. After the West India planters will be compelled by our manner of the gentleman from Connecticut, who embargo to employ their capital and land in the was fond of illustrating his ideas by very familiar culture of corn in order to subsist, will they not examples, I will suppose that gentleman was in be materially injured by it? Will not the shipthe habit of dealing largely with two merchants, ping interest engaged in carrying West India proA and B; that the intercourse between them duce to Europe be injured, and will not the conwas mutually advantageous; these merchants sumers in the mother country be injured by a suddenly quarrel: A tells him he shall not trade rise in the prices of West India produce, indewith B, and that if he attempts it he will stop by pendent of the injury to the Government on the force, and rob him of what he may be found car- score of revenue? If it had been the interest of rying to B. B tells him he shall not trade with the sugar planters to employ any portion of their A, under similar pains and penalties, unless he capital in raising corn, it is wonderful they have will first go to B and purchase of him a license never before made the discovery. The gentleto deal with A; what would the gentleman do? man from Connecticut has also informed us that I presume he would either chastise both for their these islands can be supplied from other couninsolence and injustice, or, if that was not conve- tries. If other countries can supply the West nient, he would tell them I will have no inter- Indies with those articles which they have herecourse with either of you. He would certainly tofore received from the United States, I would resist their insolence and injustice by force, dis- thank the gentleman to inform us why those other continue all intercourse with them, or submit to countries have not rivalled us in this market; for their terms. Would the gentleman in such a it is not a new one; it has been known a great case calculate whether it would be his interest to length of time. Those countries from which submit to the disgraceful conditions of B, who these islands can be supplied must have been, I happened to be the stronger of the two, than bear presume, employed heretofore in more lucrative the inconveniences resulting from a non-inter- pursuits; and, according to a position advanced course? Would the gentleman submit to dis- by the gentleman himself on the subject of graceful conditions for the pounds, shillings, and manufactures, those other countries could not pence he would make by a renewal of intercourse be induced to abandon suddenly their present with them? I presume he would not. Great pursuits, in order to supply the West India marBritain and France, in defiance of all law, jus- ket. If Great Britain can procure these supplies tice, and right, have, by their decrees and orders, elsewhere, it cannot be her interest to do so, beinterdicted our trade to a very great extent. cause it is not presumable that she can procure Great Britain, however, will permit us to trade, them on as good terms as from the United States. provided we will agree to pay her for the privi- |

The gentleman has informed us that Great