Wednesday MADISON August 15 resulted from a misapplication of the adage that the parliament was the palladium of liberty. Where the Executive was really formidable, King and Tyrant, were naturally associated in the minds of people; not legislature and tyranny. But where the Executive was not formidable, the two last were most properly associated. After the destruction of the King in Great Britain, a more pure and unmixed tyranny sprang up in the parliament than had been exercised by the monarch. He insisted that we had not guarded agst. the danger on this side by a sufficient self-defensive power either to the Executive or Judiciary department Mr Rutlidge was strenuous agst postponing; and complained much of the tediousness of the proceedings. Mr Elseworth held the same language. We grow more & more skeptical as we proceed. If we do not decide soon, we shall be unable to come to any decision. The question for postponement passed in the negative: (Del: & Maryd only being in the affirmative.) 10 66399 Mr. Williamson moved to change" of each house" into "a" as requisite to overrule the dissent of the President. He saw no danger in this, and preferred giving the power to the Presidt. alone, to admitting the Judges into the business of legislation. Mr. Wilson 2ds. the motion; referring to and repeating the ideas of Mr. Carroll. On this motion for . (instead of two thirds; it passed in the affirmative) 11 N- H- no Mas. no. Ct. (ay) N- J. no. Pena. divd. Del- ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no. [Ayes-6; noes-4; divided — I.] 12 Mr. (Madison,) observing that if the negative of the President was confined to bills; it would be evaded by acts under the form and name of Resolutions, votes &c - proposed that or resolve should be added after "bill" in the beginning of sect 13. with an exception as to votes of adjournment &c. 11 Revised from Journal. 10 Taken from Journal. 12 Madison originally recorded Connecticut's vote as "no", which made the total vote a negative. The vote was changed to conform to Journal. Wednesday MCHENRY August 15 - after a short and rather confused conversation on the subject, the question was put & rejected, the States being as follows, N. H. no- Mas. ay- Ct. no. N- J. no- Pena. no. Del ay. Md. no. Va. no. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. no. [Ayes-3; noes — 8.] "Ten days (Sundays excepted)" instead of "seven" were allowed to the President for returning bills with his objections (N. H. & Mas: only voting agst. it. The 13 sect: of art. VI as amended was then agreed to.) 13 Adjourned.14 MCHENRY Sect. II. agreed to. Sect. 12 postponed. August 15. Sect. 13. Agreed to with the alteration of of each house instead of two thirds. 13 Taken from Journal. 14 See further, Appendix A, LXXXIV. THURSDAY, AUGUST 16, 1787. JOURNAL Thursday August 16. 1787. It was moved and seconded to agree to the following as the 14 section of the 6. article. "every order, resolution or vote, to which the concurrence "of the Senate and House of representatives may be necessary "(except on a question of adjournment, and in the cases here"inafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force, shall be ap"proved by him, or, being disapproved by him, shall be repassed "by the Senate and House of representatives, according to the "rules and limitations prescribed in the case "of a bill" 66 which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes-9; noes — I]1 It was moved and seconded to insert the following proviso after the first clause of the 1st section of the 7-article. "Provided that no Tax, Duty or Imposition shall be laid "by the Legislature of the United States on articles exported "from any State" It was moved and seconded to postpone the consideration of the Proviso which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes 10; noes — 1.] It was moved and seconded to add the words "and post roads" after the words "post offices" in the 7 clause of the Ist sect of the 7. article which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes-6; noes- 5.1 It was moved and seconded to strike the words "and emit bills" out of the 8. clause of the I section of the 7 article which passed in the affirmative. [Ayes-9; noes - 2.] 1 Vote 195, Detail of Ayes and Noes, see Records of July 20, note 3; see also note 3 below. Thursday [To adjourn 4; noes 7.]2 August 16 separate questions being taken on the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 clauses of the 1. sect. of the 7 article as amended They passed in the affirmative. And then the House adjourned till to-morrow at II o'Clock A. M. aye aye aye no aye aye aye aye To postpone the Proviso 10 I no no aye aye aye no aye aye To add the words "and 65 no aye aye no aye aye aye aye To strike out the words 9 2 and emit bills" 8 clause, I section, 7 article Jaye no no aye aye aye no no To adjourn MADISON Thursday. August 16. in Convention. Mr. Randolph, having thrown into a new form the motion, putting votes, Resolutions &c. on a footing with Bills, renewed it (as follows. "Every order resolution or vote, to which the concurrence of the Senate & House of Reps. may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment and in the cases here Vote 305, Detail of Ayes and Noes, but there is no reason for placing it here, except that it follows Vote 304. At this point the secretary began keeping the Detail of Ayes and Noes in a bound blank book. On page 1 he apparently started to copy some of the more important votes from the loose sheets. He had thus copied Votes 17, 29, 30, 32, 34-37, 39-41, when he stopped and, leaving ten blank pages, commenced recording the votes of August 16 on page 12. After filling up pages 12-16, he turned back to page 2 and recorded the last votes on that and the page following. Thursday MADISON August 16 inafter mentioned) shall be presented to the President for his revision; and before the same shall have force shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him shall be repassed by the Senate & House of Reps according to the rules & limitations prescribed in the case of a Bill">< Mr. Sherman thought it unnecessary, except as to votes taking money out of the Treasury which might be provided for in another place. On Question as moved by Mr Randolph N- H. ay. Mas: not present, Ct. ay. N. J. no. Pa. ay. Del. ay. Md. ay. Va. ay. N- C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay. [Ayes absent — 1.] 9; noes I; (The Amendment was made a Section 14. of Art VI.) Art: VII. Sect. I. taken up.5 Mr. L. Martin asked what was meant by the Committee of detail (in the expression) "duties" and "imposts". If the meaning were the same, the former was unnecessary; if different, the matter ought to be made clear. Mr Wilson, duties are applicable to many objects to which the word imposts does not relate. The latter are appropriated to commerce; the former extend to a variety of objects, as stamp duties &c. Mr. Carroll reminded the Convention of the great difference of interests among the States, and doubts the propriety in that point of view of letting a majority be a quorum. Mr. Mason urged the necessity of connecting with the power of levying taxes duties &c, (the prohibition in Sect 4 of art VI) that no tax should be laid on exports. He was unwilling to trust to its being done in a future article. He hoped the Northn. States did not mean to deny the Southern this security. It would hereafter be as desirable to the former when the latter should become the most populous. He pro Taken from Journal. ' Article VII, Sect. 1. "The Legislature of the United States shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises;" See Appendix A, CLVIII(48). 7 Misprint of original Report of the Committe of Detail for Art. VII, see Records of August 6, note 5. |