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Now, in this particular case you had a condition that made it necessary to make a judgment, where you could do a certain amount of work. You had to make a judgment as to which things had priority within a certain period.

Senator HAYDEN. That is, Congress having passed two laws which required certain things to be done, the President had a choice as to which should be speeded up and which should be slowed down.

Mr. LAWTON. Where he had a question of not having available material or manpower for all purposes.

Senator HAYDEN. One law was not superior to the other.

Mr. LAWTON. It was simply a matter of changing the time but not the law.

Senator WHERRY. All of which are good reasons, but I will leave the record open for the purpose of receiving an answer to my question. Senator IVES. You wouldn't have it the other way around, would you?

Senator WHERRY. I am bringing it up because I am very much interested in the appropriations for reclamation right now. I would like to know where you get the authority. What if we appropriate the same funds this year as last year? Are they going to be frozen? Mr. LAWTON. I don't believe so.

Senator WHERRY. They were frozen last year. Are they going to
be frozen next fiscal year? They are not yet fully released.
Mr. LAWTON. There has been a change in the $85,000,000.
Senator WHERRY. What is that?

Mr. LAWTON. Up to $130,000,000.

Senator WHERRY. But there is $85,000,000 still frozen.

Mr. LAWTON. They couldn't possibly have spent that much money. Senator WHERRY. The money was authorized and appropriated and there are still $85,000,000 remaining frozen. I would like to ask the question: Are they going to freeze the next appropriation for the same thing this year?

Mr. LAWTON. Not that I know of.

Senator WHERRY. And if they do, under what authority can they do it?

Senator HAYDEN. The only authority the President could have, Mr. Chairman, is that Congress having authorized expenditures for several different projects, one authorization is not superior to the other. The Chief Executive must exercise his judgment under those circumstances as to whether it is more important to put the available labor or available material into one project or the other.

Senator WHERRY. Whether to build houses or build dams.
Senator HAYDEN. One law was just as important as the other. The
President had to make a choice, and he did it under his power to faith-
fully execute the laws.

Senator WHERRY. Getting back to the immediate problem before us on section 2, do I understand you now offer this amendment as a substitute or as an additional paragraph?

Senator BYRD. We offer it as an additional paragraph. And then No. 2 would be changed to provide for the expenditure information in the report on the bill.

Mr. WEITZEL. Paragraph 2 will be modified by that. The draftsman can place it in the appropriate place. That will be modified to

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require the information for the committee report, and the limitation on obligations will be an additional paragraph or substitution.

Senator WHERRY. It is so ordered.

Mr. WEITZEL. In addition, there is another proposed amendment, to the effect that each general appropriation bill shall show in an appropriate place and for purposes of information only the amounts to be expended in the fiscal year from permanent appropriations and from other authorizations to incur obligations, if such appropriations. and authorizations are included in the expenditure totals in the legislative budget adopted in accordance with section 138 of the Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946, and are not included in the items and totals required to be shown in tabular form by paragraph 2.

We have the same suggestion as to that amendment in that that would be placed in the committee report rather than in the bill. That would be in harmony with the action which the chairman has directed on the present paragraph 2. This information will be shown in the committee report for the information of the Congress.

Senator HAYDEN. That is to say, when Congress considers the whole problem, it will not only have the appropriations authorized for expenditures specifically in the bill, but where there are permanent appropriations, it will also have knowledge of them in the report. Mr. WEITZEL. That is correct.

Senator BYRD. And show what will be spent that year and next year. Of course, this whole question arose, Mr. Chairman, as you can see, as a technical definition of what is an expenditure and what is an obligation.

Senator WHERRY. Yes.

Senator BYRD. This change was made to conform with the bookkeeping practices of the various departments. Otherwise, they say there would be very great cost to change the system.

Senator HAYDEN. Do I understand you gentlemen to say that so far as the Treasury, the General Accounting Office, and the Bureau of the Budget are concerned, you could operate under one general appropriation bill just as well as you could under 12?

Mr. LAWTON. Our statement is that you could operate under it just as well as you could under 12 appropriation bills. The budget as it comes up is one document. It is submitted at one time, and we assume that if Congress mechanically could handle it, it would be acted on at one time.

Senator HAYDEN. That is the other side of the question. We have to consider the mechanics of congressional procedure.

Senator BYRD. The late Mr. Harold Smith, former Budget Director, appeared before the Legislative Reorganization Committee and advocated one appropriation bill.

Senator WHERRY. Is that amendment offered now, Senator?

Senator BYRD. Yes. It was gotten up hastily and may have to be perfected; but the objectives have been explained. Do you think it is technically all right?

Mr. WEITZEL. The one as to obligations may require some technical revision, but that is substantially the intent of the amendment. It may be all right as is.

We would like to have a chance to perfect it, however.

Senator HAYDEN. Let me make this suggestion, Mr. Chairman, that they perfect the amendment and then that we order a committee print of the bill showing the proposed changes.

Senator BYRD. Page 2, líne 1 [reading]:

The consolidated general appropriation bill may be divided into separate titles, each title corresponding so far as practicable to the respective regular general appropriation bills heretofore enacted.

That will be under this. That is page 2, line 1.
Senator WHERRY. Where do you insert that?

Senator BYRD. Before the word "as."

Senator IVES. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question.
Senator WHERRY. Yes, sir.

Senator IVES. I am trying to find out how you operate here. The reason you are able to operate under one general appropriation bill, or one reason for it at least, I assume, is because you may have as many supplemental appropriation bills as may be necessary. You could not operate, probably, in a satisfactory way if you were limited to one supplemental appropriation bill of the same nature as your general appropriation bill to catch everything not included in the general appropriation bill in the beginning. Is that correct?

What I am driving at is if you are going to have a lot of supplemental bills, it occurs to me the effect of the general appropriation bill in the first instance will be lost, at least in part. If you could tie this thing down so that behind your general appropriation bill in the first instance you are limited to one over-all supplemental appropriation bill, then you would have the thing really in check. That is what I think the Senator from Virginia is after.

Senator BYRD. That is what I would like to see. I don't know how you could prohibit a supplemental bill.

Senator IVES. How does Virginia work it?

Senator BYRD. With one bill.

Senator IVES. We work in New York with this same over-all bill in the first instance and then one supplemental bill.

Senator BYRD. This same bill will probably come up later than some of the individual bills.

Senator HAYDEN. How long do the Legislatures of New York and Virginia remain in session?

Senator BYRD. In Virginia it is 60 days.

Senator IVES. In New York it is up to 3 months. Unless you have one supplemental bill, the very purpose of which is excellent, it may be lost.

Senator BYRD. We don't know what a supplemental bill is in Virginia. We pass one appropriation bill.

Senator IVES. What do you do if you discover you are short? Senator BYRD. If they don't get in at the beginning, they don't get it. This wouldn't increase the number of supplemental bills. It should decrease the number.

Senator WHERRY. I think all of us are in complete accord. At least, I am.

Senator IVES. I think it is a great step forward.

Senator WHERRY. I am just sorry that the auditing is so complicated. That question was raised the last time we had this up, and there seemed to be the feeling that it would be impracticable. I wondered if there was any way to iron that out.

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Senator HAYDEN. This is not a question that affects these gentlemen here, but it does affect us very seriously, in the Senate. We now have 12 appropriation bills. The first 1 of the 12 is on the Senate Calendar but not yet acted upon.

The Senate must pass it and we have to pass 11 more, if we act on time, between now and June 30.

Senator WHERRY. Unless it is extended.

Senator HAYDEN. According to what we expect to do and should do normally. It means that the House of Representatives has taken from January until April to get the first appropriation bill over to us, and the Senate is just in shape to act on it. What I want to know is when the House passes one general appropriation bill, when is the Senate going to get it, because if the House takes all the time up until the 1st of June to get this one appropriation bill through

Senator BYRD. It can't be much later than it is this year.

Senator HAYDEN. It now means, as far as the Senate Appropriations Committee is concerned, a continual grind-morning, afternoon, and probably night—to try to get through with the appropriation bills by the end of next month.

Senator BYRD. They could have hearings before the bill comes over, I imagine.

Senator HAYDEN. I do not see how it would be possible to meet the legislative situation and give the Senate a fair chance to pass upon appropriations. We get to a place I have seen it time and agaiu during the war-the Army appropriation bill passed by the House on June 15, carrying billions of dollars, and it had to be a law on June 30. The Senate had very little opportunity to pass upon what was in the bill. It was all figured out by the House.

Senator BYRD. Here is a suggestion: Within 90 days after the convening of each regular session of the Congress, the House of Representatives shall pass and send to the Senate the consolidated general appropriation bill. The Senate shall pass such bill within 60 days after it is received from the House of Representatives.

I think the first part of it is all right, but with the freedom of debate in the Senate, I don't know whether you can say 60 days. Senator WHERRY. Are you advocating that we cut off debate? Senator HAYDEN. You won't get the House to limit themselves to 90 days, either.

Senator BYRD. This will take cooperation between the two Houses. Senator WHERRY. Yes, sir; it will, and it is something we need. Senator BYRD. One bill would show the whole picture at one time. When 12 bills come in separately, you never see the whole picture. Senator WHERRY. We will adjourn the hearing at this time, subject to call.

(Whereupon the subcommittee adjourned subject to call.)

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