Mr. JULES FAVRE. Yes, yes; it is in the report. [Noise.]

Mr. ERNEST PICARD. This is what I read in the report of the honorable Mr. Larrabure: 'In the present provisions the government hopes that the end of 1864—." [Interruption.] MANY VOICES. "Hopes!

Mr. ERNEST PICARD, continuing: "that the end of the year 1864 will mark the termination of the expedition. Moreover, arrangements have been proposed whereby, from the 1st of January, 1864, Mexico shall contribute more efficiently towards the pay and the maintenance of our troops."

SEVERAL MEMBERS. Well, well!

M. ERNEST PICARD. The report says further: "In the first place, and in a general manner, the government has no intentions of undertaking new expeditions." You know that now an expedition to Sonora is again spoken of. "As for the expedition of San Luis de Potosi in particular, it was judged necessary in order to occupy the most important parts of Mexico. The country between San Luis and Mexico contains important centres of population. The occupation of these parts became necessary, precisely to hasten the accomplishment of the work undertaken, viz: the redress of our grievances, and the possibility for Mexico to choose freely a new government. Having the country under our control as far as San Luis de Potosi, we can more rapidly and successfully see this result realized. The army will stop there." Has it stopped? [Interruption.]

M. AUGUSTE CHEVALIER. It went forward in the face of peril.

M. ERNEST PICARD. That is true. Its achievements were splendid, but our policy was not. [Approbation in the vicinity of the orator.] I proceed: Universal suffrage, operat ing naturally according to the customs or institutions of the country, will be invited to choose the form of government it prefers; whatever may be its decision, France will respect it." Is that what we are doing? I ask you this sincerely, loyally, in the capacity of a deputy anxious to fulfil my mission, and to obtain, if possible, the concurrence of my fellow-citizens and colleagues in a question which touches so nearly the most important interests of our country, both present and future. I ask you, have you done this? You have not; the Chamber knows it. Your engagements were made while you were in the chamber, and as soon as you quitted it you forgot them. [Disturbance.] You have returned to it, and I recall them to your remembrance. I remind you of them at the time, when, if we understand the language of politics, we ought to be able to see, by the explanations given us in these precincts, that not only has the French army not stopped, not only has it not returned in 1864, but also that it will not return in 1865.

SEVERAL MEMBERS. Very good!

M. ERNEST PICARD. Is it not true? Does any one contradict me? This time the minister takes no further engagement, and I thank him for it; but by taking no further engagement, he gives warning to the Chamber; and if the Chamber is warned, what is its duty? Who are we here for what? Can it be that the discussion of the address is nothing but a political pastime? [Disturbance and murmurs. ]

M. BELMONTEL. The pastime is rather a long one!

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. I must beg of M. Picard

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M. GLAIS BISOIN. Oh! the word is parliamentary; we all accept it!

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. If it be parliamentary, it is not well chosen in the midst of such full and serious debates. [Very good; very good!]

M. ERNEST PICARD. I wish that to-day's,session might prove to me that I have expressed myself badly. I wish that, animated by the same sentiments and intentions as myself, my colleagues might form the same idea as I do of our mission, and our mutual duties. [Fresh interruption.]

SEVERAL VOICES. We know them!

M. GRANIER DE CASSAGNAC. Do you claim to be a model deputy? [Noise.]

M. ERNEST PICARD. Do not be afraid, gentlemen; I shall form no theory infringing the constitution; I shall not ask you to interfere in the administration; but I ask you whether or no you have the right and the duty to vote efficiently in this assembly upon a given question about which your opinion is settled?

M. GRANIER DE Cassagnac. Certainly we have.

M. ERNEST PICARD. Does the address sufficiently express this sentiment? I have read attentively the paragraph now under discussion. It certainly differs from last year's compilation; and certainly in the ingenuous phrase, wherein the commission of the address expresses pleasure in witnessing the return of our troops, the imitation is not sufficiently precise for the government not to be able to misunderstand it. Having been three times held at bay upon this question, I conjure you, not in your own interest, not in that of the government, nor for any secondary political reasons, but in the great interest of the country, to declare your sentiments, if you have that courage that will [Exclamations and

murmurs.]

NUMEROUS VOICES. Order! Order!

M. GRANIER De Cassagnac. Such expressions cannot be tolerated.

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. I call on the honorable Mr. Picard to explain himself.

M. TAILLEFER to M. PICARD. Take back that word!

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. I call upon him to take back a word which may wound the feel

ngs of the Chamber. It is not courage, but conviction, which acts in this place: and in France, where there is conviction, courage is never wanting to express it. [Very good; very good!]

M. TAILLEFER. I require that the honorable orator take back his expression. [Yes, yes; order!]

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER, (addressing Mr. Picard.) I beg of you to withdraw your expres

sion.

M. ERNEST PICARD. I appeal to the whole Chamber to admit, with me, that the resolution to be taken in this circumstance is one that requires a certain amount of courage. [Denials and noise.]

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. I again invite Mr. Picard to withdraw an expression which is somewhat offensive to the Chamber.

M. ERNEST PICARD. I withdraw it unhesitatingly. I am here to discuss a grave question, and not to offend the Chamber.

PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. You are fully aware, Mr. Picard, that you must respect the convictions of your colleagues if you wish them to respect yours. [Very good!]

M. ERNEST PICARD. I respect them fully, and have just given proof of it.

I continue. You see, gentlemen, in what manner I take the liberty of placing this question before you. It is clear and precise, and closely connected with the gravest interests of the country, and your most imperious duties. I say, that if you decide to vote the second part of our amendment, which runs thus: "In conformity with the declarations of the government we await the recall of our troops," you will explicitly express your wishes. If, however, you will not associate yourselves with an amendment which comes from our side, you can make one for yourselves which will express the same idea. By so doing you will, in my estimation, and as I said at the opening of this debate, render the most signal service to the government. You will disembarrass its policy. When it has been decided and acknowledged in the French chamber that our troops can return with honor, without detriment to any one, the government then will no longer be restrained by these vain and egotistical reasons which were just now brought forward, but will be able to fulfil its secret desires, and conscientiously satisfy its political conduct. [Very good! from several benches.]

M. ERNEST PICARD. Can you do it? You can do it this year; you could have done it better last year; and better still three years ago. The pretexts, or, if you like it better, the reasons that prevented you last year, no longer exist. It was asked, with whom shall we treat? And the minister of state replied, "France does not treat with her enemies; she will not treat with Juarez, nor with the bands behind Juarez."

One word upon these "bands;" and, in order that I may not be told that we associate our idea, which we do not, with men who are rightly called bandits-as they have been called by the government in former discussions-I inquire of the emperor Maximilian and his ministers, whose conduct in this respect I honor-for, in this sense, they have inaugurated a liberal policy-I inquire of the emperor Maximilian and his ministers, in what manner those men should be treated who still resist the new government of Mexico? The minister of the interior, Mr. Gonzales de la Vega, expresses himself thus in a circular referring to those persons who lay down their arms: His Majesty entertains the warmest desires, and makes constant exertions, to obliterate every trace of the dissensions that have for so long a period desolated the country, and to renew the ties of brotherhood which ought to unite the great Mexican family. He cannot, therefore, see with indifference that when certain persons are spoken of, odious qualifications are used which are in disunion with his policy and his conciliatory sentiments. With this object in view his Majesty in the decree of the 6th instant, wherein he calls around him all those who have opposed or still oppose his government, without being otherwise criminal, has avoided the use of the expression indulto," (pardon.) Such, gentlemen, is the way they think in Mexico; I am convinced our soldiers think the same, not fearing to honor those with whom they have fought. I say, therefore, that the minister appears to me to exaggerate when he solemnly declares to this tribunal that it was impossible to treat with Juarez: but this is no longer the question. And when he said it was impossible to treat with Almonte, who was merely a provisionary chief, although installed by the French government itself, I reply, that although this may have been a reason, a specious one, this reason no longer exists. The Archduke Maximilian is now on the throne; he is seated there in virtue of an universal suffrage, very restricted certainly, and especially by the vote of the assembly of nobles. And here I trust the government will permit me to speak it out—arises an invincible dilemma. If votes must be sought for in the recesses of the mountains, by the edge of the sword, these votes are no longer free, and we would prefer not to have the guarantee of universal suffrage if it must be so obtained.

The emperor Maximilian is, I assert, sufficiently firm upon his throne to permit the recall of the French from Mexico. Last year you said it could not be, as he was not then installed. Now he is; ovations you tell us accompany him on every side. The pacification is effected; you yourselves declare this fact to us; you withhold from us documents that give a contrary statement, and I thank you for withholding them, if it obliges you to declare from the tribune where you stand, "The emperor Maximilian is on the throne of Mexico; and, as I informed you last year, we have entered into no engagement to sustain him there; there is no necessity of our sending out our French soldiers under a foreign flag, and we may now stipulate with

Maximilian for the return of our troops." In such a case, I withdraw my amendment, and thank the government for having performed an act of sound policy and true patriotism.

And now, gentlemen, I must beg you to note that whatever seeming irritation there may have been in our debate, I have carefully abstained, throughout the perplexing circumstances which surround our heavy task of duty, from saying a word about these threatening contingencies which hang over the question, and of which you are perfectly cognizant. [Murmurs.] On the other hand, you must judge whether it comports with it, comports with a true and judicious policy to keep thirty or forty thousand French troops and a portion of our fleet engaged for years in the Mexican expedition, three thousand leagues distant from the war we are actually carrying on in Algeria. Is it a sound policy? Is it a patriotic policy? Is it a policy which a French Chamber can accept? No! a thousand times no!

They did not dare to present it to you in this light when they drew you into this expedition; and can I forget that you constitute to-day the sovereign expression of the will of the nation? that when you speak, if you do speak, all, and the government before all, are bound to obey? I conjure you, in the name of French interests, to speak, and to protect the government itself, and, above all, France. [Expressions of warm approbation around the speaker. ] PRESIDENT SCHNEIDER. The minister of state has the floor.

His excellency Mr. ROUHER, secretary of state. Gentlemen: Government does not ask you for a vote of trust; still less does it demand of you a vote of complaisance which you would not grant. It asks for your sincere, enlightened, and free judgment on the affairs of Mexico, [very good;] and, in order to aid you in forming an opinion, it is its duty to inform you of the facts, and of its convictions concerning them.

And first, I meet in the Hon. Mr. Picard's discussion a reproach which I could in no wise expect. The government, says he, makes silence around the Mexican question; it produces no documents, no papers in the debate; it shows itself unwilling to give any informa tion, and thus compels the opposition to discuss the question at a great disadvantage.

What, gentlemen, has the house, has the country, remained ignorant of the events concerning Mexico? Has not all possible information been given to public opinion, and to the members of this assembly? Every fortnight, at the arrival of every mail, either in England or in France, the Moniteur publishes with most scrupulous fidelity every military, political, or administrative information relating to the Mexican question. You can examine all these documents; I know of no omission nor of no interruption in them, for, so far as I am concerned, I declare to the house when I wished to inform myself concerning the events which have taken place in Mexico since last year I merely and simply read the Moniteur. Thus the reproach addressed to government by the Hon. M. Picard is utterly unfounded.

Let us now examine rapidly what Mexico was before, and what it has become since, the emperor Maximilian ascended the throne; what the present position is, and what duties that position entails upon us. Let us consider at once, as did the Hon. M. Picard, the paragraph in your address, and the amendment to it proposed by the opposition.

Mexico, prior to the French intervention, (and all agree on this point,) was a prey to the most deplorable anarchy. For fifty years it had undergone all the sufferings entailed by prolonged revolution; governments succeeded each other with the most marked want of stability; civil war reigned in central Mexico, and in a large portion of the south. The northern prov inces had thrown off the yoke of all authority, the governors having long. since declared their independence.

There existed in that unfortunate country a sad contrast between the riches with which God has endowed it, and the disordered rule of the leading classes which governed it. As was said yesterday by the honorable M. Corta, labor, the love of order, and patriotism, had no longer a home there; but among the long-oppressed Indian population, agriculture, industry, and commerce had no security of existence or of duration; labor no future to look to. And this disorder did not injure the natives only; it reached all foreigners who had come to bring their activity and their industry into the various parts of Mexico.

Such is the origin of the resolution taken by three great nations to avenge the injuries received by their countrymen, and the outrages to which they had been subjected. Such was the condition of Mexico.

What has it become since the French intervention? What has it become since the emperor Maximilian ascended the throne to which he was called by a regular, universal suffrage, whose votes were presented to him when he accepted the crown; what has it become since ? But, first, let us ask, at this moment, when that question is propounded to us, how long a time has there elapsed to justify a demand for the absolute pacification of Mexico?

The emperor Maximilian has hardly been ten months in possession of the Mexican empire and of the city of Mexico, and we are already asked to give a strict account of all the events which may have taken place!

Well, let us look at the facts.

French intervention has procured a durable peace to the central part of Mexico; but a large portion of the country had not yet been embraced by the operations of our troops. All the northern provinces and part of the south along the Pacific coast were yet in the hands of the adversaries of the empire, and that for the reason given a moment ago by the honorable Mr Corta. The federal system had divided the country into almost entirely independent provinces; each governor had his own administration, his own justice, his own army, his own

finances; paid and equipped his troops, and had an arsenal of his own at the seat of his gov

ernment.

Thus there was no centralization of the administrative powers, but a complete dispersion of all authority, and even of financial resources, for the governors levied taxes, but very seldom did any portion of them reach the hands of the central administration at Mexico.

The emperor of Mexico had, therefore, a two-fold mission to fulfil. He had first to reorganize the administration and government in the parts of the country which were pacified; he had the difficult task of steering clear of the passions of the contending parties, avoiding the exaggerations of the clerical party as well as the fiery demands of the party called liberal in Mexico.

He had, besides, to organize in the midst of these factions a new party, at once conservative and liberal, which should avoid all the above-mentioned obstacles.

It is, undeniably, a difficult task that of reorganizing all this complicated administrative and governmental machinery which, in the Old World, we can establish only with a great deal of time and patience, and which we have perfected, but after paying often very dear for our mistakes.

He had at the same time to establish his authority in the more remote parts of his empire, to overcome the influence of Juarez, and to counteract the efforts of his party and of the governors, who considered themselves independent.

What has he accomplished, gentlemen? He inaugurated his administration by a general amnesty, thus urging the country to quiet, to peacefulness, and seeking to lead the people to ideas of order and those of the government. Then he convened, as you were informed by Mr. Corta, all the most enlightened and eminent men of the city of Mexico and of the provinces, without distinction of parties, and without inquiring into the part played by them in former political events, and he intrusted them with the task of inquiring into the questions of finances and that of the organization of the army.

Finally, in order not to act too precipitately in anything in this country, rendered sore by revolutions, he went himself into the provinces, visited the principal cities, inquired into the tendencies, the ideas, customs, hopes of the people, thus gathering all the information which could be useful to him in the difficult art of governing a nation.

After his return to Mexico, making up his mind at once, he resolved all the questions which had to be disposed of, and determined the administrative course of the prefects of the empire by instruction worthy of the homage they received yesterday.

He has organized a council of state; he has restored justice-that justice so endangered in Mexico has been by him established on a firm basis, which guards at once its learning and its liberties. And this was doing no little, gentlemen. The administration of justice in a country is more than a governmental question. It is a social question. For it is in the administration of justice we find the most solid basis of the future and grandeur of a nation. [Marks of approbation.]

When this was done he inquired into all the questions which related to the increase of the public wealth. He sought to give the strongest possible impulse to enterprises facilitating the means of communication between the various parts of the country.

In these efforts did he meet with general confidence? Has he enlisted the sympathies of Europe? Have no manifestations occurred around him of a nature to prove that his empire is already firmly established, and offers most satisfactory guarantees to public opinion? I consider the movement which has taken place during these nine months of the events of which I have to give an account to the Chamber. This movement has been as follows: The customs of Vera Cruz and of the other ports of the empire have considerably increased. The English, who showed themselves very suspicious at the time of the loan, have gained confidence, and the great railway, which is to connect Vera Cruz and Mexico, has been conceded to an English company, who will fulfil the contract entered into by the firm of Escenda and the government of Juarez.

This is not all. Various companies are being organized in Mexico; the Guanajuato and Guadalajara railways, which are to connect the principal cities of the empire, have been conceded; the mines of Durango, including both the old lodes and newly discovered ones, are being worked by mining companies; science and speculation have joined hands to aid in developing the resources of the country. Besides the gold and silver mines it possesses, there have been discovered iron and coal mines and petroleum lands, all of which are about to be worked.

Something more was needed. Communications had to be established between the ports of the two seas which surround Mexico. A company was organized for this purpose, and now a line of steamers ply between the ports of both seas, insuring rapid communications along the coasts of the Mexican empire.

On the other hand, gentlemen, the emigration movement spoken of by the honorable M. Corta, has received a commencement of execution. I read in the Moniteur that large tracts of land in the province of Zacatecas are being offered to European immigrants.

Finally, as a last evidence of the progress making in Mexico, and a most promising symptom for the Mexican empire, is the formation with French capital of a national Mexican bank, which will soon organize the commercial credit of Mexico.

Such results obtained in a new country, in a country which is but now attaining social 18 D C *

existence, developing for the first time its resources and powers would be essentially worthy of attention and admiration.

How, then, shall you consider them when they are realized in a country so long a prey to civil war, still restive and disturbed, and of which a large portion was still a short time ago in the hands of the enemy we were fighting?

One word about military expeditions.

The honorable M. Picard has said that these military expeditions were undertaken under circumstances rendering them at once unreasonable and useless.

But which were the provinces where Juarez had sought shelter? Where was he still ruling? What resources was he availing himself of to organize the "corps d'armee" which we had to conquer? He had taken refuge in the State of Durango, and thence ruled over the States of Nuevo Leon, Coahuila, Tamaulipas, Chihuahua, and Sonora.

He drew his supplies from the port of Matamoras, situated on the American frontier, and from various ports on the Pacific. Was it reasonable, was it possible for the emperor Maximilian to let this opposition increase, fed by the Mexican customs, which he had a right to rely upon collecting?

Under these circumstances was the expedition undertaken, and now reproaches only are addressed to the brave troops who courageously marched from victory to victory through the immense territory they had to cross. [Very good, very good.]

A VOICE. We did not blame our soldiers.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE. You did not blame the soldiers, but you blamed the eminent officer who, in order to insure the completion of our undertaking, and to hasten the return of our troops, undertook these expeditions; led by political considerations, you blamed the eminent chief who planned these far-off expeditions, and you sought to make government contradict itself.

A VOICE ON THE LEFT. It is the system.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE. Yes, our troops, commanded by Marshal Bazaine, took possession successively of Durango and Monterey, then strengthened by Mexican troops, and, assisted by our navy, they seized Matamoras, and thus dried up the source of Juarez's supplies, which he used against us. They did not stop there. Marshal Bazaine sent General Douay into the State of Jalisco, and gave him the charge of subjecting these agitated provinces then advancing toward the regions along the Pacific coast, we brought them all under the rule of the emperor Maximilian.

We have been to Acapulco, to Tepic, to San Blas, to Mazatlan; perhaps we are at present on our way towards Guaymas, the most important port of Sonora. Everywhere did we vindicate the honor of the French flag, or rather of the Mexican flag, whose defenders we were. [Very good, very good.] A worthy crowning of these great undertakings was the unconditional surrender of Oajaca, of its governor, Porforio Diaz, and of the four thousand men of his command.

Now, gentlemen, that our conduct has been explained, and a condensed account of our operations presented, what criticisms are made against us?

If I understand the Hon. M. Picard correctly he brings two principal accusations against us: an overweening confidence in the resources of Mexico, and a breach of promise.

We would allow the Mexican government to negotiate a loan in our market when Mexican finances, according to his opinion, do not present sufficient guarantee.

We had promised to withdraw the troops at the end of the year 1864, and we violated that promise.

As regards Mexican finances, gentlemen, did not the information imparted by the Hon. Mr. Corta fully satisfy the house concerning the resources of that country? [Yes, yes.] The honorable M. Picard got hold of I know not what kind of statistical tables, which he showed the house from a distance, and which he finds, says he, contradict the statements made by the Hon. M. Corta, statements taken from a former minister of finances in Mexico. Did the Hon. M. Corta, in order to convince you, merely give you the indications of some writer or other? Did he not analyze the position of the Mexican empire under Spanish rule, afterwards as a republic, and again after the United States had taken possession of it? Did he not follow up the question in the mos tthorough manner, proving that as far back as in 1804 the resources of Mexico represented one hundred millions of taxes, of which fifty millions-the figures are due to M. de Humboldt-were handed over to the Spanish authorities, who used part of it for the colony and sent the other part to the mother country? This is also confirmed from other sources.

In 1846 the Americans had possession of all the Mexican ports; they could collect the Mexican customs for their own use. How much do the documents of that time value them? At eighty to ninety millions; the very figures mentioned by the Hon. M. Corta.

There was less contraband and fewer frauds going on then. The Americans managed the customs in a way which gave the best guarantee in that respect.

These figures were but the rough product, I know. But Mexican budgets are made as we make them in France. In the budget of expenses figure the expenses for the administration and collecting of customs, while the rough amount derived from them figures in the budget of receipts.

It was, therefore, natural for the Hon. M. Corta, when counting up the resources, to put

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