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the hon. Member appeared to forget that in the United States the people spoke English, and the English law prevailed; whereas in Turkey the people spoke Turkish, and the Turkish law prevailed. Consequently, it was necessary for the English Government to maintain a number of interpreters in Turkey. By agreements between the English and Turkish Governments a peculiar jurisdiction was also established in Turkey for British subjects. These things naturally caused larger expenses in Turkey.
MR. FREELAND expressed a hope that the whole matter would be carefully considered.
Vote agreed to.
the affairs of nations abroad; the origin of that meddling and interference, and that state of incipient war which always existed. Take the case of Mexico for example. Many years ago this country lent money to that republic; English bondholders held their bonds, and received a high interest because of the risk they incurred. Yet the moment that the danger became imminent, the bondholders, not satisfied with the ample returns they had already received, began to cry out; and the Government sent an expedition at a vast expense, and went to war in order to recover the money. Yet Mexican Stock had never attracted any attention in the market until the bondholders had complained, and we had begun to interfere. Then again, this year we lent £426,000 to Morocco, to enable them to pay off the indemnity to Spain. The Customs revenues of that country were mortgaged to us in return. We therefore were the mortgagees in possession of the revenues of Morocco. Now here was a casus belli far more clear than that in Mexico, of which we had already taken advantage. Here war and expenditure loomed in the distance. If France attacked Morocco on the side of Algiers, or if Spain invaded her again on the side of Tetuan, we should have to join in the fight, in order to save our bondholders. Then, again, we lent six or eight years ago the sum of £1,600,000 to Egypt; in return for which the Viceroy secured to us an annuity of £176,000 on the revenues of the Delta. We were therefore the mortgagees of the Delta. A specific thing was mortgaged to us; and if there should ever be a breach of agreement (either because of wars with other Powers, or from other causes), we of course should seize upon that security. Now, we knew how jealous France has been of our influence in Egypt; so that the security for our bondholders would here oblige us to enter upon a long and disastrous war with France. There were many other loans, with which he would not trouble the Committee. This system of loans had greatly increased of late years. During the last ten years the loans of France alone had been increased by the sum of 168 millions of pounds; and the debts of the whole world had been augmented, during the same period, by a sum of 500 millions of pounds. The loans of the whole world now amounted to 2,074 millions of pounds. It would be seen, therefore, that not only was the wealth of the nation directly crippled by
(25.) £50,000 for Special Missions, &c. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU noticed the item of £1,500 for "inquiry into the Finances of Turkey;" and inquired whether this mission were undertaken for the benefit of the taxpayers of this country, or for the good of Turkey? The taxpayers should not be called upon to pay this sum unless they received some adequate return for it. The result was certainly satisfactory, for we had discovered that the Government of a great Empire could be carried on at an expense of only eleven millions a year, while this country had to pay seventy millions. Yet, on the other hand, this sum was virtually paid for a quasi guarantee of the Turkish loan. After the Crimean War the Turks were unable to raise money in this country without a direct guarantee from both France and England; while the loan of this year, on the contrary, was instantly subscribed, because it became known that our Government had investigated previously the financial resources of Turkey. This inquiry was therefore, in fact, a guarantee to the capitalists of this country. It would be well, therefore, for the Committee to take into conideration the nature and effect of these loans. He did not allude to the direct effect of such loans, in withdrawing a vast amount of money from the reproductive capital of the nation-from the capital which stimulates energy and creates wealth-and in applying it to unproductive works, to that which destroyed energy, dissipated wealth, and nourished hatred and distrust. He did not allude to this effect, but to another result far more momentous. These loans he believed to be the cause of the feverish anxiety felt at home concerning Viscount Palmerston
MR. FREELAND said, that they were voting large sums for an outlay arising out of their connection with Turkey. In this Vote alone no less a sum than £12,090 in the whole was asked for. He should like to know whether the reforms promised by the Turkish Government, especially those in which British subjects were interested, were being carried into effect? He particularly wished to know, whether the route from Trebizond, by way of Erzeroum to Tabrez, over which great quantities of British merchandise passed to Persia, had been improved?
these means; but also we had put out | causes of expenditure. He made particumany millions in such a way as to bring lar mention of the war with Mexico as an us into contact with every Power of the argument and excuse. If, therefore, the world. If a debtor was in danger of im- Under Secretary be right, the noble Vispoverishment, we must interfere. If we count was wrong. If the noble Viscount heard of diplomatic differences, we must was right, then he must correct his Under diplomatize. If armaments were increased, | Secretary. He (Lord Robert Montagu) we must arm too. We thus always appealed to the noble Viscount. Then, embroiled ourselves with other's embroil- again, the Under Secretary took exception ments. When war threatened, our Ex- to the word "mortgaged." If he lent change trembled, and our capitalists forced money to any landholder, which was sethe Government into war. He believed cured on the income from the creditor's that this improper employment of capital lands, then the land was said to be mortwas the real cause of all our meddling, gaged to the debtors. It surely, then, was and interference, and "bloated arma- a very fair figure of speech, and not by any ments," and "profligate expenditure." means far-fetched, to say that the Delta of Egypt and the Empire of Morocco were mortgaged to us. We had lent £426,000 to Morocco, which was raised in 5 per cent bonds. The amount of Customs revenues collected in that country were £322,900; out of which the half (£160,000) were yearly secured to us. And yet the amount of interest and sinking fund annually due to us was only £38,000. This therefore, was excellent security. Then, again, with regard to the Egyptian loan the same may be said. He alluded to the loan of £1,600,000; in return for which £176,000 were secured to us by the Viceroy, to be paid annually out of the revenues of the Delta. The Delta was, in fact, mortgaged to our bondholders. He repeated that this system of loans embroiled us in the difficulties of others; and was a cause of our vast expenditure.
MR. LAYARD said, in reference to the Morocco loan, that all we had to do was to allow our agents there to receive a portion of the Custom-house dues, and to hand them over to the creditors of Morocco. He also denied that we had been at war with Mexico. The road to Erzeroum, to which allusion had been made, had not, he was afraid, been carried out, as ought to have been the case; but the Turkish Government would, he trusted, see the expediency of taking the matter vigorously in hand.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he was astonished at the denial made by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that we had been at war with Mexico. He (Lord Robert Montagu) must therefore call a witness into court to prove that point. The witness should be no less a person than the noble Viscount himself. The noble Viscount, in answering the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli), the other day, accounted for the great expenditure of this year and last year He might add that it had been the invariand the year before. In doing so he par-able rule of the English Government not ticularly mentioned the war with China to undertake to require payment for Briand the war with Mexico as unavoidable tish subjects who, of their own authority
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, his hon. Friend (Mr. Layard) had not stated that the Government had not taken any measures against Mexico to obtain satisfaction of our just claims; what he stated was that the claims we had made upon that Government did not apply to debts due to bondholders. The claims against Mexico had reference, in the first place, to the non-payment of certain sums which, by convention, the Government of Mexico had agreed to pay; and in the next to the restoration of a sum of 600,000 dollars which was forcibly taken from the House of our Minister. This money was under scal, and the seal was broken as he was on the point of leaving the country. Such acts as these were national injuries-a breach of faith, and an outrage for which they were entitled to demand satisfaction.
and without any sanction by the Government, advanced money to the Governments of foreign States. These parties did so at their own risk and peril, and all the Government ever did was to give their good offices to induce the Government to whom the money had been lent to pay; but non-payment had never been made the ground of war. If it had been the practice of the Government of England to go to war in order to obtain payment to bondholders, we should have been at war with Spain many years ago-we should have been at war with almost all the Spanish States of America, and we should have been at war with many other countries into the bargain. That, however, was not our practice, and therefore any alarm which the noble Lord might feel that we should be led into war in consequence of loans advanced to foreign Governments was entirely unfounded.
LORD ROBERT MONTAGU would ask the noble Viscount whether it were not the case that the Conventions to which the noble Viscount alluded, were not entered into a very short time ago, in order to regulate the payment of the interest on a former loan, and merely grew out of that loan? He would also ask whether the 600,000 dollars were not stolen by Miramon's Government-from whom no satisfaction was required; and whether it was not the fact, that when his opponent, the popular President Juarez, came into power, then satisfaction was claimed by the noble Viscount? Juarez showed his inability to pay the sum at once, but secured the sum on public buildings; among which, he delivered over even the National Palace, sa a pledge. This was stated by Sir C. Wyke, our Minister at Mexico, in the despatches laid upon the table of the House. The noble Viscount had therefore proved that the war arose out of the loan, and out of that alone. He was glad, however, to hear the noble Viscount disclaim for the future all intention to levy war in order to secure the capital of money-lenders. This statement would tend greatly to discourage the system of loans.
MR. W. E. FÖRSTER, said, he was glad to have the distinct declaration from the noble Viscount that the money lent to the Turkish Government was lent purely at the risk and peril of the capitalists who advanced it. It was most questionable whether the Government should give any sort of sanction or authority to any Viscount Palmerston
trade transactions between British subjects and foreign Governments; any such proceeding was very much calculated to embroil us in war.
MR. DARBY GRIFFITH said, when a short time ago the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs stated the debt of Turkey at £14,000,000, he entirely omitted the domestic debt. It appeared from the report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster that the entire debt of Turkey, external and internal, amounted to £42,000,000.
MR. LAYARD explained, that on the occasion referred to his remarks were avowedly confined to the foreign debt of Turkey. The report of Lord Hobart and Mr. Foster completely verified what he then stated to the House. Vote agreed to.
(26.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That a sum, not exceeding £40,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1863, for Surveying the Line of Boundary between the British and United States Territory, in the Wes
tern part of North America."
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, he believed that the physical and scientific difficulties in the way of tracing the boundary between our possessions in North America and those of the United States were so great that it would be almost impossible to accomplish the work. He thought the Government should submit to the House an estimate of the entire cost of the Commission, and should also state when the undertaking was likely to come to an end.
MR. PEEL believed, that the boundary had been traced, and that the Commissioners were now on their return home. The present Vote, added to the £60,000 voted last year, would be nearly sufficient to defray the whole expense, which could not exceed £110,000 altogether.
MR. PEASE asked, whether the United States Government had consented to the boundary so far as traced?
MR. PEEL replied, that the Commission was a joint Commission, and that the United States Government paid half the expense.
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE wished to know, whether the sum now asked would practically close the account. If so, he should be satisfied.
MR. PEEL could give no such assurance; but such vas his belief.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE thought that
his right hon. Friend near him seemed to be more easily satisfied than some of the economists who were not there. He thought the hon. Gentleman had given no assurance that there would not be a repetition of this Vote of £40,000. He would move that the Vote be reduced by £20,000.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £20,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1863, for Surveying the Line of Boundary between the British and United States Territory, in the Western part of North America."
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that his hon. Friend had come down to the House late this evening, and he supposed must have his joke. But he supposed his hon. Friend did not mean that this boundary was not to be traced, or that people were not to be paid for tracing it. The American Government were in perfect concert with ours in this matter, and had agreed to share the expense.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE said, he wanted the noble Lord to give a pledge that the cost would not be repeated.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, he could give no pledge without knowing the facts to which it was to apply. He suggested that his hon. Friend should move for a report of the probable amount that would be required to complete the survey.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE said, he would do that too.
MR. LAIRD wished to know, whether the money had been well expended? He therefore asked, whether the American Government were so far agreed with us as to the boundary?
MR. PEEL believed they were entirely agreed with us.
COLONEL DUNNE hoped a tracing of the boundary line would be laid before the House.
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE wished to know, whether the expense had been borne by both Governments.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question again proposed. Whereupon Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.'
SIR CHARLES WOOD said, there was a treaty between the two Governments that there should be a boundary line. The American Government were acting with us in order to trace that boundary and prevent disputes. It was surely reasonable that it should be traced at the expense of both parties.
The Committee divided: - Ayes 29; Noes 46: Majority 17.
Original Question put, and agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow ; Committee to sit again To-morrow.
INCLOSURE BILL-[BILL No. 130.]
Order for Third Reading read.
MR. PEACOCKE suggested, that when any measure was in future proposed for enclosing any land in the vicinity of the metropolis, the attention of the House ought to be specially drawn to that fact. No one would imagine, from what appeared on the face of this Bill, that the Forest of Hainault, situated within nine miles of London, was intended to be enclosed by it. This was a matter seriously affecting the health and recreation of the poorer classes inhabiting the east end of the metropolis, and neither the House nor the Government ought to afford facilities for such encroachments.
SIR GEORGE GREY said, that the proceedings upon this Bill showed that these enclosures could not take place without the utmost publicity. The Bill confirmed certain orders made by the Enclosure Commissioners, which orders could only be made after due notice to the whole neighbourhood affected. In this case certain persons interested in the question had petitioned the House upon it, and their petition had been referred to a Select Com. mittee in the same manner as if the measure had been a private one. The present arrangement had, he believed, been acquiesced in by all the parties interested. He would, however, consider the hon. Member's suggestion and communicate with the Enclosure Commissioners upon it.
Bill read 3o, and passed.
RETURN MOVED FOR.
LORD HENRY LENNOX, in moving for an Address for a Return showing the results of the late experiments made with Armstrong or other guns at Shoeburyness within the last six months, and specifying various particulars, said, he was surprised to find
that this simple and, at the same time, urgent Return was to be refused by the Secretary for War. A strange misapprehension had gone forth with respect to the experiments made upon the target of the Warrior, and contradictory statements had been made by high authorities as to the penetrating power of different descriptions of guns on iron plates. The accredited agents of foreign Powers had, he understood, been permitted to obtain information as to all the minutia of these experiments, and the House of Commons alone appeared to be kept in the dark on the subject. The Return which he sought for would help to remove the uneasiness and uncertainty which now prevailed on this important matter, and he therefore begged to move for its production.
Motion made and Question proposed, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, a Return showing the results of the late Experiments made with Armstrong or other Guns at Shoeburyness within the last six months, and specifying the charge of powder, weight of shot, and distance of object fired at; including a Copy of the diagram of the Warrior Target, showing the impact and penetration of the various shots."
SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that if there was any particular experiment as to which the noble Lord wished for information, and he would give notice of a question respecting it in the usual manner, he would answer such a question; but it was not usual for the Military Department to give a detailed Return of the results of an experiment like this. The Admiralty had not felt themselves justified in laying upon the table the report of the Iron-plate Commission which had been lately presented, and it contained detailed accounts of a series of experiments, exactly like that mentioned in the Return now asked for. He trusted that the House would not think it necessary to insist on the production of such a Return.
MR. MONSELL thought that the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken as to the practice of the Department, for, if his memory served him, detailed accounts were laid before the House in the case of the experiments carried on with Mr. Bashley Britten's inventions. The House ought to be thoroughly informed upon everything bearing on the question of fortification, which would have by-and-by to be discussed, these fortifications being Lord Henry Lennox
chiefly advocated on the ground that it was possible to make a gun powerful enough to penetrate the sides of the Warrior at a distance of 1,000 or 2,000 yards. It was therefore important to know exactly the result of the experiments carried on. There was no mystery on the subject. Foreigners went down to Woolwich day after day, and saw the whole process of manufacture. He had also been shown a diagram representing the result of the experiments; and if what he had been assured was correct, the newspaper accounts of these experiments were altogether unfounded.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, his right hon. Friend (Sir G. Lewis) had undertaken to answer any question which might be put with regard to particular facts after due notice. But that was very different from laying before the House a detailed return such as that moved for.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE said, that the fortifications were to be constructed with reference to a particular gun not yet made. How, then, could the House enter upon a discussion as to the expediency of constructing those fortifications if it had not the specific information now asked for? The House voted the money for these experiments, and why should it be left in the dark as to the results? He had been assured that the target had not been penetrated in the course of this experiment; that the shot had stuck in the skin; and that nobody would have been hurt on board a ship so defended. With regard to the diagram which had been spoken of, he had a photograph showing the impact of the balls upon the target. There was no secret about it, and he did not see why the Government should make one.
On Question, the House divided:-Ayes 16; Noes 19: Majority 3.
FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL-[BILL No. 47.]