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He did hope that the Government would modern steam-ships were placed under seriously take this subject into their totally different conditions. The only consideration, and not be deterred by the way of having those ships refitted, with necessary expenditure it would involve. convenience, economy, and despatch, was His noble Friend had tried to alarm the to have docks into which they could be House with an exaggerated idea of that ex- taken while fully equipped for war. penditure. His right hon. Friend, indeed, had mentioned the sum of £1,250,000, but it was right to point out that that expenditure would be spread over six or eight years, and would not add more than £200,000 to the annual Estimates.
MR. J. H. PHILIPPS said, the Committee which sat last year on the extension of Chatham dockyard had confined themselves to the subject referred to them, and were not deserving of censure for not going beyond their instructions.
MR. G. L. PHILLIPS hoped that the Government would give due attention to the capabilities of Pembroke, which was most favourably situated for works of this description.
MR. R. W. DUFF could not congratulate the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Corry) on the time he had chosen for bringing forward a proposal to spend a million and a quarter on dock accommodation.
SIR JOHN HAY said, that as the noble Lord had referred to him, he would just state to the House what had actually occurred within his experience. During the Crimean war the Black Sea fleet had to be repaired at Malta. They all had to be docked, and the necessity of docks was greatly increased by the use of steam power. The dock at Malta was one of those docks to which the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Laird) so well alluded. The dock had been constructed with twenty-one feet of water over the sill, and was just long enough to take in the largest ships that were then employed in MR. BERNAL OSBORNE wished, bethe Mediterranean. Shortly after it was fore the Speaker left the chair, to draw constructed, it was found that steam-ships the attention of the Secretary of State for required much more dock accommodation, War to the non-performance of his proand it was therefore decided that the dock mise with regard to the evidence taken by should be lengthened. It was lengthened the Defence Commission. Before the adaccordingly, but the sill was not deepened; journment for the Whitsun holydays he and the inner part of the dock being made reminded that right hon. Gentleman that ten feet deeper than the outer part, there a copy of this evidence had been more than was no possible means of getting ships a week in the Library of the House, and through the shallow outer dock into the the right hon. Gentleman undertook that deeper inner one. The ship that he had it should be in the hands of Members soon the honour to command required to be after the House rose. Now, up to that docked at Malta in order to be repaired; evening it had not been delivered. As and as she drew twenty-seven feet of the right hon. Gentleman had given notice water, it was necessary to lighten her that he intended to bring the question to to twenty-two feet, by taking out all her which that evidence referred before the guns, her coals, her stores, her top-gallant House on the 23rd instant, it was exmasts, and part of her engines and machi-tremely desirable that the evidence should nery. The preparations for getting her be placed in the hands of hon. Members into dock took a week, while the repairs without delay. The question was a nice she had to undergo when they did get her one, and would require a great deal of into the dock only occupied three hours. consideration. Perhaps the right hon. If that dock had been large enough, and Gentleman would also state whether he the sill as deep as the inner part, the meant to proceed by Bill or otherwise on whole of the Mediterranean fleet could the 23rd instant. have been docked in two days. It had been said that we had 219 line-of-battle ships in 1815. But at that time line-ofbattle ships did not necessarily require to be docked in order to be repaired, but it was now indispensable. An old line-of-had requested that copies might be placed battle ship could be hove down and re- at once in the Library for the inspection of paired wherever it might be, but our Members, fully believing that in a day or
SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he certainly was under the impression that the evidence would have been delivered immediately. The copy brought to him. appeared to be in a perfect state, and he
FORTIFICATIONS AT PORTSMOUTH.
two the rest would be delivered. The House, however, was aware that the printing arrangements were not under his control, but that the matter lay between the Secretary of the Commission and the printer. He was not officially responsible for the delay, but he would inquire into its cause. He proposed to take the ordinary steps for obtaining leave to bring in a Bill to extend the powers of the existing Fortifications Act; and, as that would create a charge on the Consolidated Fund, it would be necessary that he should be gin by moving a Resolution in Committee of the Whole House. He would therefore, on Monday the 23rd, move such a Resolution on which to found the Bill. The words of the Resolution would appear on the paper to-morrow morning.
Motion agreed to. House in Committee.
SUPPLY-CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES. (In the Committee.) Mr. MASSEY in the Chair. (1.) £4,200, Bermudas. LORD NAAS inquired whether it was the intention to make any alteration in reference to the convict establishment at Bermuda?
SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, there was no intention to send any more convicts there, and he believed that so far as it was a convict station it would be abanoned.
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH called attention to the large balances which were in hand in the case of most of these Votes; and asked whether, that being so, it was necessary to vote such large sums of On the 28th of February the balances upon fourteen Votes amounted to £102,000, while the amount asked for was £117,000. It certainly deserved consideration whether, if these balances were returned in hand on the 1st March, it was worth while to vote such large sums. With reference to this particular Vote, he thought, that as Bermuda was to be nothing more than a military garrison, £4,200 for the salary of a civil Governor, a Judge, and other officers, was needlessly large. He thought the revenue of the island should be amply sufficient to defray the civil expenses.
would be transferred in due course to that chest, the accounts connected with which were necessarily scattered all over the world, and could not, therefore, be very expeditiously adjusted. But what was voted for the year was no more than what was required for the year. Vote agreed to.
MR. PEEL said, that the explanation of these balances was, that in the first instance these colonial charges were met out of the Treasury chest, and the sum voted Sir George Lewis
(2.) £6,278, Clergy, North America. MR. BAXTER observed, that there was £2,000 of the sum voted in 1861 still in the Exchequer, so that it seemed that there was an extraordinary system of keeping accounts. He wished to know whether it was clearly to be understood that the payments would terminate with the lives of the present recipients?
MR. PEEL said, that the accounts of 1861 were not completed on the 28th February last, and therefore all the claims on account of that year were not yet made. It was impossible to complete the accounts sooner.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, that the Vote was an expiring one, and would die with the last recipient. It had at one time been as much as £21,000. In fact, since the Vote had been framed, one of the recipients had died. Vote agreed to.
(3.) £1,438, Indian Department, (Canada).
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, he had last year given a sort of pledge discontinued. On inquiry, however, he that the supply of blankets should be found that these blankets were strictly in the nature of personal allowances to the Indians, and on the same footing as the pensions. There was a list of Indians above sixty years old, to whom these charitable allowances were made, but the Vote would disappear altogether with the decease of the present recipients. Vote agreed to.
most young colonies were asked to contribute, or even than most old ones. Vote agreed to.
(5.) £55,000, Vancouver's Island. MR. ARTHUR MILLS asked for further information beyond the words "an estimate of the sum to defray expenses consequent upon the resumption of Vancouver's Island from the Hudson's Bay Company by the Crown."
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, it was a Vote which never could appear again in the Estimates, but it was a Vote without which the Crown could not resume possession of the Island. In the grant of 1849 to the Hudson's Bay Company it was provided that the Crown should have the power of resuming possession of the Island at any time after the expiration of the licence to trade, upon payment to the Company of the actual amount which they had expended in establishments, bringing emigrants there, &c. The Company demanded a much larger sum than £55,000. There had been a great deal of negotiation between the representatives of the Treasury and of the Colonial Office and the Company. A compromise had at length been arrived at, and legal proceedings of a very protracted and expensive character had been avoided.
MR. ADDERLEY said, that however satisfactory it might be to hear that the Crown could not buy Vancouver's Island of the Hudson's Bay Company twice over, and that another Vote would not be asked for the same purpose, he still wished to know what we were to have in return for these payments, and he should also be glad to know whether any similar arrangements had been made with respect to transfer of the rights of the Company on the mainland.
MR. ADDERLEY inquired, whether the Company had any claim upon the mainland, and also whether the Government would furnish a Statement of Account as to this £55,000, showing what it had been paid for.
MR. CHILDERS was afraid that the Committee could take no other course than grant the money, although it would have been better if they had had some explanation in reference to the items. The Company by their charter were entitled to be paid, not simply the value of the things existing on the Island, but the actual money which they had expended.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, he was very sorry that the Crown had been obliged to buy Vancouver's Island at any price, but it became necessary when the Government determined to form a colony at Vancouver's Island. The matter was part of the arrangement made in 1849, and every farthing of this sum had been expended by the Hudson's Bay Company-in fact, it was only the balance after giving credit for the proceeds of the sale of lands. With respect to the mainland, the claim of the Company was of a very minor character, and it had been compromised upon favourable terms.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, he could only refer the Committee again to the Company's charter. The amount of the Vote represented the value of establishments handed over to the Government and the amount expended in conveying settlers from this country.
MR. ARTHUR MILLS wished to know if the whole affair was now wound up; and he also expressed his opinion that it was objectionable that they should have to vote money for carrying out emigrants, of whom he thought there must have been very few.
MR. W. EWART said, he must press for a detailed account.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, there were a considerable number of emigrants. He would take care that a detailed account should be prepared.
MR. CHILDERS asked, whether any conclusion had been come to as to separating the Government of Vancouver's Island and that of British Columbia.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE could not give any positive information at present; but he could say that the subject was under consideration of the Colonial Secretary.
MR. PEASE asked, whether emigrants were encouraged by grants of land or minerals?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, the land laws of Vancouver's Island and British Columbia were of a most liberal character, and were on an equality with the land laws of the adjoining territory of the United States.
MR. ARTHUR MILLS asked, whether this would be a final settlement?
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, that he confidently believed that this would be a final Vote. At the same time, there was a slight difference between the Government and the Company, and a claim
MR. ADDERLEY wanted to know whether, after the arrangement was concluded, the Hudson's Bay Company would still exist?
ranging between £5,000 and £10,000 tive governments to pay their own Gowas in abeyance. He did not think it vernors; but it must be remembered that would come to anything, but could not the colonies whose Governors we were speak positively. asked to pay were, with the exception of Jamaica and the Windward and Leeward Islands, colonies which were of a very poor and insignificant character, and which had until the present day suffered from serious embarrassments. With respect to the Vote for the Governor of Jamaica, he must repeat the explanation that it was of a temporary character, and would, ho anticipated, in consequence of an arrangement which had been made, soon disappear from these Estimates. With respect to the other two, they were Governors-in-Chief, each having jurisdiction over some half-dozen dependencies. These dependencies having their own establishments, it would be very difficult to obtain from them, by their several contributions, the sum necessary to pay a man of ability to fill the post of Governor in Chief. With respect to the Chief Justice of the Bahamas, the duties which that judge had to perform for his £300 a year were strictly of an Imperial character, it being his duty to check those wrecking transactions which operated so injuriously on our trade, and the existence of which was a disgrace to this country.
MR. CAVE observed, that if the question was raised as to whether the salaries of those Governors should be made up by the House of Commons, there was this further question to be decided in respect to some of those colonies-namely, whether they wanted Governors at all? It was perfectly absurd to have the expensive paraphernalia of a Court in colonies not larger than an English parish. No doubt there were anomalies connected with the whole of this Vote; but as the Colonial Office had to deal with those colonies when they were in a state of transition, owing to the effects of Imperial policy from which they had not yet recovered, the House might look at the Vote with more favour than they would other
MR. BAXTER reminded the Committee that the Australian colonies, with the ex-wise be inclined to show it. The Colonial ception of Western Australia and New Zealand, and the North American colonies, with the exception of Prince Edward's Island, paid their own Governors, and he thought it should be urged on the other colonies that they should do the same.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, he very much agreed in the general principle laid down by the hon. Gentleman, as to the duty of colonies having representaMr. Chichester Fortescue
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE replied, that the question they were now discussing in no way affected the Hudson's Bay Company's charter; but their power would cease under the agreement over all territory west of the Rocky Mountains except as a private company.
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE understood that the Hudson's Bay Company had a legal claim upon the Government, and under those circumstances it would be a most unusual course for the House to interfere with the payment.
Vote agreed to.
(6.) £25,028, Governors, &c., West Indies, and other Colonies.
MR. ARTHUR MILLS objected to the appearance in this Vote of sums paid for the salaries of Governors of colonies having representative institutions, and called attention to the appearance for the first time of an item of £300 for the salary of the Chief Justice of the Bahamas of which, if it were not explained, he should move the omission.
MR. CHILDERS complained of the reappearance of the charge of £3,500 for the salary of the Governor of Jamaica, which the House had been twice promised had been voted for the last time. In 1835, when a promise was given that this item should not appear on the Estimates again, it was stated that negotiations were pending with the Colonial Legislature which rendered it inconvenient that the amount should be struck out at that time. The Governors of colonies having representative institutions ought to be paid by those colonies.
Office had more power in those colonies than it had in larger ones; and although he admitted that, as a general rule, the appointment of Governors had of late been characterized by honesty and conscientiousness on the part of the Government; yet, if the question as to the continuance in office of the Governors were put to the colonies, while some might probably be re-elected for life, others would have no
more chance of maintaining their position than the Pope would if the French left Rome; and these small payments were of little account compared with the mischief which had been inflicted by misgovernment in some of these colonies.
MR. HENNESSY, in reference to the charge of £100 a year for the Chief Justice of Anguilla, remarked that the revenue of Anguilla amounted to £414; the territory was sixteen miles long and two broad; the number of the white population was under 100, yet a Court of Queen's Bench, a Court of Common Pleas, and, he believed, a Court of Chancery, were kept up in Anguilla. It was now proposed to pay the Chief Justice at the rate of £1 per head for the white popula
MR. CHILDERS called attention to the fact that for years past the revenue of Sierra Leone had been more than the expenditure by as much as £2,000 a year. Now, he thought under these circumstances the colony ought to bear a portion of the general expenses of the Coast.
MR. CHICHESTER FORTESCUE said, he would direct the attention of the Colonial Secretary to the subject.
MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH complained of the expenses of the Gold Coast. He moved that the Vote be reduced by £2,500, half of the amount for the maintenance of forts and establishments.
"That a sum, not exceeding £19,634, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1863, for the Civil Establishments on the Western Coast of
SIR FRANCIS BARING rose, pursuant to notice, to move the reduction of the Vote by the sum estimated for the expenses of Lagos-namely, £500 for the Governor, £1,000 for a pension to the ex-King Docomo, and £2,500 for continHe said, that hon. Members gencies. table, that in 1852 the late King Akitoye would the laid on the made a treaty with the British Government for the suppression of the slave trade. His nephew Kosoko took advantage of the unpopularity of this act; and, backed by the slave interest, drove the king from his throne, and took possession of Lagos. He then set England at defiance, and was deposed by the British Government. Akitoye was restored to his kingdom, and at his