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not to give that opinion, but rather to things really in the face, but has shown protest against the speech of the right a political discretion and wisdom which hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) as re- some of those who have censured him will gards the colour which he has given to one day recognise. the conduct of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) and the course which he felt it his duty to take, and also against the view which was taken by an hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. B. Osborne) on the same subject. It is true that the course which events have taken this evening have reduced to a solemn farce that which ought to have been a serious debate. But to whom is that owing? It is owing not to my right hon. Friend, but to the noble Lord. [Hear, hear!" "No, no!"] Yes, to the noble Lord-for the noble Lord, with that adroitness of which he is so great a master, put the House in such a position that it was absolutely impossible for the debate to go on otherwise than in a manner which would be entirely beside the question which we were met to discuss. Now, I say that the course taken by my right hon. Friend is one which leaves it in the power of the House to deal with the subject again. You may be assured of this-that if my right hon. Friend had not withheld his Amendment, the result would have been that the whole House would have been embarked in a subject entirely foreign to finance. The future state of things may warrant,' be added whole question would have been whether to the word 'That' in the original Question," the noble Lord was to retain office or not.-put, and agreed to.

"That the words 'this House, deeply impressed

with the necessity of economy in every Department of the State, is at the same time mindful of its obligation to provide for the security of the Country at Home and the protection of its the decrease which has already been effected in the National Expenditure, and trusts that such further diminution may be made therein as the

interests Abroad; and observes with satisfaction

Many a man who does not agree with the noble Lord politically or financially on some subjects would have withdrawn from opposition rather than have disturbed the noble Lord in the possession of the office which he holds. Any looker-on may judge how far the noble Lord's Government has gained in character by the course pursued to-night. I will give no opinion on that. Let every person who reads the newspapers to-morrow judge of our position. But this I say, that this financial subject remains open; it awaits discussion; discussion some time or other is inevitable, and you will then approach it without the prejudices with which it would have been approached if my right hon. Friend had not exercised a wise discretion. ["Oh, oh !"] There may be Gentlemen eager for a division; but of this I feel confident, that the time will come when they will see that my right hon. Friend has been the man who has saved them from a great difficulty, and that he has not only shown the fair disposition which he always does to look

MR. CLAY expressed his satisfaction that the noble Lord had not accepted the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman, which had been generally spoken of as calculated, if was not intended, to humiliate him. The noble Lord had, however, undeceived those who thought that he was ready to swallow anything. There was a want of vigour and of reality both about the original Motion and the Amendments, with the single exception of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Horsman), which alone raised a distinct and an honest issue.

Question, "That the words proposed to
be left out stand part of the said proposed
Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to. Resolved,

necessity of economy in every Department of the That this House, deeply impressed with the State, is at the same time mindful of its obliga. tion to provide for the security of the Country at Home and the protection of its interests Abroad;

and observes with satisfaction the decrease which has already been effected in the National Expenditure, and trusts that such further diminution may be made therein as the future state of things may warrant.

House adjourned at a quarter after
One o'clock till Thursday.

Thursday, June 5, 1862.
MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.- 1a Jurisdiction in

Homicides; Sandhurst Vesting.

2 Universities (Scotland) Act Amendment; Red Sca and India Telegraph Company.


that period. But engravings published in illustrated works did not fall within the terms of the Literary Copyright

ORDER FOR COMMITTEE DISCHARGED. BILL Act, and therefore they were governed by the Engravings Act, which only gave a copyright of twenty-eight years, under certain conditions. In this Bill it was proposed to give to engravers a copyright during the author's life, and for seven years afterwards; but not to give the alternative period of forty-two years. Under the Designs Act, sculptors could register their works, and recover penalties in case of piracy; but the law in respect to sculpture differed from the law relating to painting and engravings. The result was an uncertain and incomplete state of things. He could not but think that it was desirable to establish the same law in reference to all artistic and literary productions. He thought, also, that the question of international copyright should be considered, together with the whole sub


EARL GRANVILLE said, that in accordance with what appeared to be the general feeling of their Lordships, he proposed to move that this Bill be referred to a Select Committee. He thought that would be the best mode of dealing with the complicated details of the question.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH said, he would not oppose the reference to Select Committee, but thought that the required amendments could have been made in the Bill in a Committee of the Whole House. He would suggest, however, that the Committee should consider whether, in giving new protection to painters and engravers, it would not be well to give similar protection to sculptors.

LORD CHELMSFORD said, he approved the reference to a Select Committee, be-ject of domestic copyright, before they cause he thought that before the Bill be- proceeded to fresh legislation; and he came law it would require to undergo would suggest that a Select Committee be very material alteration. At the same appointed to inquire into the law of copytime he would venture to suggest the ne-right in general, and that this Bill should cessity for an inquiry into the law of artis- be referred to that Committee. tic copyright generally, which appeared to him to be in an unsettled and unsatisfactory condition. This Bill only proposed to deal with drawings and paintings, leaving the question as concerned sculpture unchanged. He thought the existing law with regard to engravings and sculpture required amendment. The law of copyright affecting engravings depended upon an old Act of 1735, called "Hogarth's Act," which gave engravers a copyright in their works for fourteen years, afterwards extended to twenty-eight years. In order to obtain that privilege, however, it was requisite that each engraving should bear the name of the engraver and the date of the first publication, which requirement was, of course, not fulfilled in the case of artists' proofs and proofs before letters. As the term of copyright in engravings was not the same as that of literary copyright, in the case of engravings illustrating a work a question arose whether the engravings were governed by the Literary Copyright Act. Under the Literary Copyright Act, no preliminary conditions were prescribed, and copyright was given to the author during his life, and for seven years afterwards; or for a total period of forty-two years, if his life should not extend to

LORD TAUNTON said, he believed his noble Friend the President of the Council had exercised a very wise discretion in referring the Bill to a Select Committee. He believed that the Bill pushed the principle of protection to a most extravagant point. He should despair of making the measure a reasonable one in a Committee of the Whole House, but he hoped that in a Select Committee they would be able to give to it that character.

EARL STANHOPE trusted that the inquiry before the Select Committee would be proceeded with immediately after the Whitsuntide recess; for he should consider it a great misfortune if the Bill, which had already received the assent of the other House, should, in consequence of any unnecessary delay, be dropped for the present Session.

EARL GRANVILLE was afraid, that if the Select Committee were to enter into the consideration of all the subjects adverted to by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Chelmsford), a great delay must take place.

LORD CHELMSFORD said, that what he desired was, that the different laws vith respect to artistic works ould be assimilated.

EARL GRANVILLE said, he would en- | depend on the successful operation of the deavour to name the Committee before the telegraphic communication. House adjourned.

Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee on this Bill discharged; and Bill referred to a Select Committee:

The Lords following were named of the Committee; the Committee_to meet on Monday the 16th instant, at Four o'Clock, and to appoint their own Chairman :

Ld. Chancellor.
Ld. President.
Ld. Privy Seal.
M. Westminster.
Ld. Steward.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH observed, that electric telegraph communication with India was not merely of commercial importance, but of the highest political importance also. If the matter were left to the management of a Company, he had no great hopes of the success of the scheme. The line must pass through the territories of foreign rulers. A Company would hardly be able to carry out the object without the intervention of the Government. He therefore thought it would V. Stratford de Red- have been better if the Government had

E. Ellesmere.
Ld. Chamberlain.
V. Hardinge.


E. Derby.

E. Stanhope.
E. Carnarvon.
E. Grey.

E. Sommers.

E. Ellenborough.

L. Overstone.

L. Cranworth.
L. Wensleydale.
L. Chelmsford.

L. Taunton.

kept the whole matter in their own hands.

LORD LYVEDEN said, he did not agree with the noble Duke in thinking that all that now remained to be done was to make the best of a bad bargain. He wished to know whether the Government had gone into the question, whether or not the electric telegraph to be established under the Bill would form the best line of communication with India? Suppose this Company should fail, were Government to take no other steps to complete telegraphic communication with India? Had they con


[BILL NO. 70.] SECOND READING. Order for the Second Reading read. THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in moving the second reading of the Bill, said that its object was to make the best of a bad bar-sidered whether this scheme was feasible? gain. In 1858, the late Government en- The correspondence which had taken place tered into an agreement with a Company between the two Companies was very which had engaged to establish an electric meagre, and there had been no declaration telegraph communication between England by the Government as to what the contract and India. By that agreement the Com- was. pany were guaranteed an annual payment of 4 per cent on any sum up to £800,000 which they might expend on the work, provided they succeeded in establishing such a communication. The Company altered. They were absolutely entitled, laid down the communication, and for a under a Report made to the House of short time each separate part was in suc- Commons, and by a vote of that House, cessful operation, and messages were for to every farthing of money that was some days transmitted from England to given to them by this Bill. There Kurrachee. The Company had therefore was a provision in the Bill, however, fulfilled the condition. But very soon for converting that payment into annuiafter the line had been brought into work- ties, and for their redemption by Going order, some of the most important of vernment. The new Company, at their its links became defective, and had never own risk and with a large expenditure of since been restored. The Government never- capital, offered to fish up the Red Sea theless were still bound to pay the stipu- cable and complete the line of communicalated 4 per cent per annum. Under tion with India, without any advance or these circumstances the whole matter guarantee from the Government, and only was then thrown upon the Government, stipulating for the profits of the line if who declined to attempt to restore the they succeeded. He thought such an artelegraphic communication themselves, but rangement, so far as the Government were entered into an agreement with a new concerned, was making the best of a bad Company, by which that Company were bargain; and he was not sure that, after to be remunerated from the profits of the all, this was not the most certain mode undertaking, so that their profits would of establishing telegraphic communication

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL thought his noble Friend misunderstood the whole transaction. The arrangement as to the payment of the late Company was not

with India, which the Government were | event of a war the communication would most anxious to see carried out. be destroyed.

LORD REDESDALE observed, that Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordwhile the Bill stated there were certain ingly, and committed to a Committee of arrangements which had been entered into the Whole House on Friday, the 13th with Her Majesty's Treasury, these were instant. not set out either in the preamble or schedules. He thought it extremely important that these arrangements should be specified in the Bill. He had hoped that the mode in which the Bill was drawn had been exploded long ago.


LORD REDESDALE said, he did not think there was much reason to apprehend any competition in the establishment of such a line of communication. His opinion was that the £200,000 proposed to be expended in restoring this communication would be thrown away; and, oreover, he was convinced that in the The Duke of Argyll


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EARL GREY wished to know whether the arrangement the Government had made would be any obstacle to their establishing another line, either by the Red Sea or through Persia, if that should be considered advisable, or whether a complete monopoly was given to one Company? He thought it most important that the hands of the Government and Parliament should not be bound by such an arrangement.

The right rev. Prelate said, that the case which he had to bring before their Lordships was a very small one in itself, but it involved principles which, if allowed to remain in operation, would affect the whole of the Church of England Schools.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL approved the general principle stated by the noble It was the case of the parish of Chrishall, Chairman of Committees. Parliament in Essex, in which place, after a considershould undoubtedly keep a sharp look-able period of neglect, something like a out in all these cases; and had that taken little revival had taken place, and an effort place in 1858, very possibly the original was made to establish a school. An apagreement would not have been sanctioned. plication was made to the Education ComThe whole of the present arrangement had mittee for a grant in aid of the building; been laid before Parliament in the shape but it was refused on the ground that the f a Treasury Minute, and the letter of proposed school was to be in union with he new Company accepting the terms. the National Society, and that no grant This was before the end of March, so that could be allowed unless "the conscience the House of Commons had had time clauses" were introduced. The reply of maturely to consider the subject; and, in the Committee on Education created conpoint of fact, no objection had been made siderable feeling in the parish. It was to it. There was no guarantee given that known that the objection of the Committee other lines should not be established; the was grounded on the circumstance that only agreement was that the new Com- between fifty and sixty families profespany should restore and complete the com- sedly belonged to the Church of England, munication, and that they should have and that about an equal number belonged all the profits of the line up to the limit to Dissent. The result was that the of 25 per cent, beyond which there were Dissenters immediately joined with the various arrangements as to the right of Church people in petitioning the Compre-emption. All this was specified in mittee of Council that the difficulty might the Treasury Minute, but he should not be waived, and that a grant might be object to insert the Treasury Minute made in aid of the building of the Nain a schedule, if the rules of Parlia- tional School. It was hoped that a unamentary procedure would permit of that nimous petition to that effect, in which the name of not a single inhabitant was wanting, might succeed in removing the difficulty which had been raised by the Education Committee; but the reply was to the effect, that although, no doubt, it was satisfactory that all the inhabitants should be willing to concur in establishing a National School, yet the building grants of the Committee were presumed


"Copies of Correspondence between the Committee of Privy Council on Education and the Committee of a proposed National School at Chrishall, relative to an Application made for a Building Grant for the said School, and refused by the Committee of Council."

to be in perpetuum, and it was an invariable rule that the assent or wishes of existing parishioners should not be acted upon so as to bind those who came after them. It was added that the parish of Chrishall was avowedly too small to support more than one school; and that as nearly half of the inhabitants were Dissenters, the next generation might be unwilling to let their children attend a school in connection with the National Society; and the fact that an objection might possibly be raised hereafter to the school on the part of some of the parishioners was deemed by the Education Committee a sufficient reason for refusing a grant in aid of the building. If the possible existence of Dissent in another generation was to be considered an obstacle to the making of a grant in aid of a National School, the application of that principle would effectually debar the extension of Church of England Schools by the aid of public money, as had heretofore been the case. The reply of the Education Committee contained an intimation that there was something of a proselytizing system in the Church of England Schools; but such a system the National Society repudiated, except so far as it was bound to carry out its principles as an embodiment of the National Church promoting the cause of education. The National Society, by the profession of its members and by its charter, entertained, and had always insisted on promoting, the principles of the Church of England; but, at the same time, it had in its terms of union certain discretionary powers vested in managers which were designed to obviate objections, probably of a temporary kind, that might be made here and there. It was not correct to say that there was anything of a proselytizing character in the National Society, beyond that which must necessarily belong to it as the representative of the Church of England. Such a statement might equally well be made with respect to the British and Foreign Society, because the British and Foreign Schools were as much the schools of the Dissenters as the National Schools were the schools of the Church of England. The principle upon which the public grants were originally made was that of encouraging religious bodies who had already been exerting themselves in order to promote the education of the country, and it was agreed that the question of religion should be put on one side. The country was to avail itself of the efforts

which were made so strenuously by religious bodies; but in the present instance what he and many others felt, and what had been represented to him continually since the question of the conscience clause had been so frequently agitated, was that the money power vested in the Committee of Council was made to control and influence the religious character of schools. That was totally alien to the principles upon which the movement began. If carried out extensively, it must bring confusion into all the efforts that might be made to promote the Church of England schools, and that, too, without a particle of evidence that the discretionary power which managers were entitled and called upon to exercise had been in any way abused. In the absence of such evidence, it was rather hard that those who were exerting themselves to promote Church of England schools should be prevented from exercising the discretionary power vested in them; while, at the same time, they were told that the Committee of Council would themselves exercise a discretionary power as to the schools which they might deem entitled to receive aid where Dissent in any form existed. He held, for his own part, that a discretionary power might be abused in the way of making grants, just as much as in requiring the application of religious tests. It was a fact, however, that the National Society had resisted attempts by managers to introduce religious tests. The Education Committee, in their reply to the promoters of the Chrishall school, professed to be guided by old rules. Now, the only rule bearing on the subject was to be found in page 6 of the last Code, and was to the effect that the religious denomination of each school should be suitable to the families relied upon for the supply of scholars. He presumed that the people themselves were to judge of what was suited to their case. The inhabitants of Chrishall were unanimous in favour of the proposed National school; but, leaving that point, he was at a loss to know when and where this rule had its origin? It was certainly to be found in the last Code, but it had no existence before. When the difficulty about the management clauses was arranged, it was thought that the National Society would be permitted to go on in its good work without molestation; and it was certainly startling to be told that the money power wielded by the Education Committee was to be used to control the

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