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Tite, W.

Welby, W. E.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Wemyss, J. H. E.

Torrens, R.

Whitbread, S.

Trollope, rt. hon. Sir J. White, L.

Turner, J. A.

Turner, C.

Vane, Lord II.
Vansittart, W.
Verner, Sir W.
Verney, Sir H.

Vernon, H. F.

Villiers, rt. hon, C. P.

Vivian, H. H.

Vyner, R. A.

Walcott, Admiral

Walker, J. R.

Walpole, rt. hon. S. II.
Walsh, Sir J.
Walter, J.
Watlington, J. W. P.
Weguelin, T. M.

Wickham, H. W.
Williams, Col.
Winnington, Sir T. E.
Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Wood, W.
Woods, H.

Wrightson, W. B.
Wyndham, hon. P.
Wynn, Sir W. W.
Wynne, C. G.
Wynne, W. W. E.
Wyvill, M.
Yorke, hon. E. T.

TELLERS.

Brand, Mr.
Dunbar, Sir W.

Question proposed, "That the proposed words be added instead thereof."

or of want of confidence, can only do so on the supposition that they are prepared to take the consequences of the Government resisting such a Motion and being in a minority. Those consequences would be either a dissolution of Parliament, or a change of Administration. The friends with whom I act-the noble Earl at the head of the party with which I am proud to be connected has, I know, from the beginning of these proceedings-from the beginning of this Session and throughout this Session-publicly in his place in the other House, and privately among his friends, always said that he did not wish to displace the noble Lord opposite. That being so, it is not in my power-consistently, at least, with my opinion of the duty I owe to this House and to my friends-to persevere with a Motion which may be attended with consequences, and MR. WALPOLE: Mr. Speaker, the which might entail responsibilities, that I, announcement made at the commence- for one, am not prepared to encounter; ment of this evening by the noble Vis- and inasmuch as the noble Viscount himcount at the head of the Government was self has said to-night, that if his Resoluof so startling and unusual a character, tion be carried, the Government do intend that it places not merely myself, but my earnestly to apply themselves to consider friends and the House, in a position of the best means by which reductions can great difficulty and embarrassment. In be made in our expenditure, the House the choice, however, of the difficulties loses much less by accepting such Resoplaced before me, and placed before the lution than it might lose if I were to House, it is my duty now to redeem the persevere with my Motion entailing the pledge which I gave at the commencement consequences to which I have adverted. I of the evening, that I would state the know the course I am now taking may not course which, upon reflection, I thought be agreeable to some of those with whom it would be right to take. The Govern- I would wish always to co-operate; but I ment have placed us in this position- am placed in so unusual and unexpected either the House is not to express its opi- a position, that I must bear all the responnion on questions of finance and expendi-sibility of the course which I take; and, ture, without running the risk of throw-if anybody is to blame for that course, the ing the responsibility on any Gentleman blame must rest with me alone. Neverwho may move an Amendment of attempt-theless, I believe that, upon the whole, the ing to displace the Government; or else the responsibility which, on the other horn of the dilemma, would be thrown on me is, that notwithstanding the Motion of which I gave notice was not intended, either by me or by those with whom I act, as a Motion of censure or of want of confidence in the Government, yet the noble Viscount has chosen to put it in that light, and therefore throws on me, who have given notice of that Motion, the responsibility alluded to by my right hon. Friend below me, of taking upon myself all the responsibility of such a Motion, supposing it were to succeed. Now, I always understood that any Gentleman or party in this House who undertook to move what is considered a vote of censure VOL. CLXVII. [THIRD SERIES.]

course I propose to take is a course most conducive to the well-being of the country; for I think it not desirable to attempt to disturb the Government at such a moment as the present, when I have no reason myself to say that the Government do not deserve the confidence of the country.

MR. W. E. FORSTER (who spoke amid much interruption) said, he wished to state in a few words the sense he put upon the Resolution of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He interpreted it in the sense stated by the noble Lord himself - as a pledge for economy. He was well aware that the words in which the pledge were clothed in themselves carried very little weight

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with them; nevertheless, he felt assured that the noble Lord would not have ventured to take the unprecedented course of himself proposing this Amendment, knowing the feeling of the country with respect to the amount of taxation, without being prepared, as far as possible, to fulfil the pledge held out. He wished further to state, that notwithstanding the small number, comparatively, of the supporters of the original Motion, he congratulated and he believed that the friends of economy throughout the country would congratulate the hon. Member for Halifax on having brought forward the Motion, for he fancied that otherwise they would not have had this pledge from the noble Lord. Since the noble Lord had proposed his Resolutions as a vote of confidence in the Ministry, he might say that he had confidence in the noble Lord's Government, as far as foreign policy was concerned; but with regard to economy, if he merely compared the professions of the noble Lord with those of the right hon. Gentleman opposite, he should have been willing to support the right hon. Gentleman; however, he could not separate the foreign policy from the home policy, and therefore he should now support the Resolutions of the noble Lord, on the condition that an expenditure admitted on all hands to be excessive should no longer be wrung from the pockets of the people.

MR. WHITESIDE said, he wished to state the course he should feel it his duty to take under the extraordinary circumstances in which the House was placed. He liked a direct course. He came there to-night for the purpose of hearing the Amendment of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Walpole) debated and decided upon its merits. He thought the subject interesting, and he should not have been frightened by the language even of the noble Viscount. But before that question could be discussed, the noble Viscount, in a manner unprecedented, unconstitutional, and unparliamentary, stood up and declared what would be his conduct in the event of the House being satisfied of the justice of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment. If the noble Viscount could act in that way whenever he pleased, he became not the leader, but the Dictator of that Assembly. As the Motion of the Previous Question could not be now put according to the forms of the House, and as his right hon. Friend had withdrawn his Amendment, nothing remained for him to say,

but that, as he held the words of the noble Lord's Resolutions to be without meaning, equivocating, and shuffling, he could not agree to them, and should meet the Motion with a direct negative.

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE: As a friend of economy, I cannot, like the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster), who, I believe, pulls the strings on this occasion, find matter of congratulation in the course which the debate has taken; for, whatever may be the opinion of the crowded assembly in this House, I am mistaken if the country will not look on the whole proceedings of this night as one of the most solemn shams. Here we were brought down on the eve of one of the great holydays of the country to hear an elaborate speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax, which, somehow or other, evaded the whole subject, but which, if carried out to its legitimate conclusions, would involve this country in a long and expensive war. The hon. Member for Halifax, taking counsel, no doubt, in the morning with his colleague, the other Member for Halifax, made a speech in which a few Liberal sentiments were enounced, but the question of economy was kept completely in the background, though the hon. Member, like the Emperor Napoleon, seemed ready to go to war for an idea. In the speech he made he gave the go-by to all the discussions on Estimates, and I felt rather surprised when I recollected that those hon. Gentlemen among whom I sit, but in whose sentiments I do not always participate, when we come to Votes upon Estimates-to a Vote like that on Alderney, for instance, the other night, in which £270,000 was at stake, and which by the aid of eight votes we might have struck off, are always absent, though they can come down here at other times and in sounding periods and bow-wow platitudes enunciate theories which attract the attention of the House even on the eve of a Derby Day-and that is a great thing. Then there are those sixty-three Financial Reformers who signed the famous round-robin, who are always away when there is anything brought forward; for instance, on that Vote for Aldershot, which was one of the first things we tested them upon, they were all absent. ["No, no!"] Perhaps there were some of them there, but I notice that these Gentlemen have got now into a way of saying, "No, we won't contest the Estimates, but we will come forward on some

occasion when we can do no good; we will shut the door of expenditure when the steed of economy has been stolen" and late in the Session a Motion is made like this, which I think is about the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of. I cannot congratulate the friends of economy on this night's business. Between the variety of Amendments, my feeling was very much

"Why all this difference should there be
"'Twixt Tweedledum and Tweedledee."

This has been from the beginning to the
end a bottle of smoke which will be duly
appreciated by everybody who is not a
Member of Parliament. [Mr. Cox: And
by some of them.] Well, perhaps, by
some of them too. My hon. Friend the
Member for Finsbury represents a large
constituency, full of common sense, who
will appreciate all. this; but there are
other people who are not in the same
happy position as the hon. Gentleman.
Well, what is the state of things we have
got to? If we talk of economy, up starts
the noble Viscount and cries out, "I will
have no economy—that's a party question."
The right hon. Gentleman and sensitive
Member for Cambridge University attends
a meeting. [Mr. WALPOLE: No, no!
[Mr. WALPOLE: No, no!]
No, he does not attend it, then; but he
has such confidence in his party that he
keeps away and agrees to move an Amend-
ment; and then

"Back recoils, he knows not why,
"E'en at the sound himself has made."

defence we are to be called on for a loan

which there was a good deal about Sclavo-
nian nationalities, and some of the claptrap
about Italian unity. It seems now that
we are never to have anything said about
domestic policy; but the moment any
domestic policy is pointed at, immediately
people are to get up and say,
66 Oh, but
there's Italian unity." I give no opinion
now about Italian unity. I hope that
all nations struggling for liberty will
succeed on their own merits; but if for
Italian unity we are to be called on for
that self-defence of which we have heard
something to-night, and if for that self-
of £11,500,000, then, much as I love
Italian unity, I love British integrity
Gentlemen who allow that red herring to
more. I warn the House, and those hon.
be drawn across their trail so often, that,
there is a duty which they owe to this
fond as they may be of Italian unity,
country in the shape of British expendi-
thize with a people struggling for their
ture, and, however much I may sympa-
liberty, I sympathize with the British
this debate has not turned upon questions
taxpayer more. I, for one, regret that
of domestic economy, but has run away
on questions which are not relevant to
the subject. I do not exactly know what
the position of things is after the course
the right hon. Gentleman has taken. I

believe it has been said that on the eve of the Derby "favourites" are sometimes found "bolting." It looks to me in this case as if the "favourite" had-not "boltThe right hon. Gentleman was bound, ed" exactly, but as if somebody had "got before he brought everybody down here in at him," as they say. Whether or not crowds, to have made up his mind, and to that be the case, I suspect that the right have known the effect of what he was hon. Gentleman can never run for a Derby about to say. It will not do for him to again. We have had this battle of Amendcome down here, and, with hearse-like ments, these sham Motions, and reformers moans and with as much solemnity of getting up and congratulating themselves manner as if the British Constitution were on economy; and what progress have we at stake, to say, "No, I like economy made towards economy? Is the Member much, but I like Lord Palmerston for Bradford so soft as really to believe more." It was the duty of the right that by this Motion we have got any hon. Gentleman to have thought of all promise of economy? The effect of it is that before he put himself, his party, this-we have made the noble Viscount and, what I think is of infinitely more stronger than ever. I hear the cheer of the consequence, the country, in the position hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Kinnard), who, in which we now find ourselves. I felt as a banker, of course delights in the cirso strongly the futility of all these Motions, culation of money; but by stronger that I intended to have taken the noble than ever" I mean that the noble Visand independent course of walking away count will be more unchecked than ever. out of the House and voting upon none of He will come down here and propose them. I have heard nothing like a reason Votes of national fortifications, and you given to-night. The hon. Gentleman the will support him. I think the only perMember for Halifax made a speech in (son who has come out of this matter with

66

ton.

feelings of satisfaction is the hon. Member | a command over your temper and your for Brighton. [Mr. WHITE: No, no!] head. On the present occasion it would For he comes down with his Eleven, and be much better not to interfere with plays All the World. He is beaten fairly; the further discussion, which, I have but late in the Session we get the out- no doubt, will occur on a subject so siders, the fags and the longstops, who serious as the finances of the country, come down here and bring forward these when that subject will be divested of the Motions, which can do no earthly good. collateral circumstances which have been I do not know whether we are going to connected with it to-night. I will not have another division or not, but what impugn the conduct of my right hon. I would advise the rest of the House Friend. I certainly did expect that one to do would be to leave the matter who has so many real claims to the name and entirely in the hands of the right hon. character of a statesman, and whose ParMember for Cambridge University and liamentary knowledge is so great that I the noble Lord the Member for Tiver- have always willingly and readily bowed to it, might have contemplated the possible issue, that the Government might choose to raise, however unwarrantably. There has been a discussion to-night whether it was a question of want of confidence or not. I think, no doubt, on the part of my right hon. Friend there was a want of confidence. The only result of the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lindsay) would be, that the House will sit up to a very unreasonable hour-considering the engagements of to-morrow-and my opinion is that we should much better allow the Resolutions of the noble Lord to pass. What are those Resolutions? The House having lost an opportunity of discussing in a becoming spirit the most serious question of the day, we shall not at all improve our present position, or advance those opinions which are, I doubt not, sincerely entertained by many hon. Members on both sides of the House, by entering upon the

MR. LINDSAY said, the Resolution of the noble Lord did not satisfy him, more especially the second paragraph, and he would move the omission of the second paragraph, and the substitution of the following words in lieu thereof :-" But this House would regard with satisfaction such a decrease of the National Expenditure as would admit of a reduction of the present exceptional War Taxation." Hon. Gentlemen who were anxious to see the expenditure reduced without interfering with the security of the country could hardly do otherwise than support this Amendment.

Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment,

By leaving out from the word "Abroad" to the end of the said proposed Amendment, in order to add the words "but this House would regard with satisfaction such a decrease of the National Expenditure as would admit of a reduction of the present exceptional War Taxation," -instead thereof.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I can only say that I have the same objection to this Amendment as I had to the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite.

MR. DISRAELI: Sir, if I might presume to give any advice to the House under the present circumstances, it would be that we should all go home. The business, being really serious, will no doubt again afford to the House an opportunity of delivering its opinion upon it. It is not likely that a combination of Parliamentary circumstances such as has occurred to-night will occur again. I think the best thing is always to put a good face upon a disagreeable state of affairs, and take that sensible view which may be taken even of the most distressing and adverse occurrences, if you have

consideration of the Amendment which

has just been proposed. It appears to me that the best thing we could do, after what has occurred, is to allow the Resolutions to pass, with this conviction, which I am sure the majority of the House will feel, that when the Resolutions have passed they will not have the least influence on public events or on public conviction.

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE: I en

tirely concur in the advice which the right hon. Gentleman has addressed to the House, and believe that it would be far more for the dignity of our debates and of our proceedings if we take without further division or discussion the Amendment of the noble Lord, which has now become a substantive Motion, and leave the whole world to judge of the proceedings of the noble Lord and the Government upon the matter. But my reason for rising now is

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