Sir, I will now advert to the views of the hon. Gentleman who introduced the Motion. So far as I could follow him, his speech was a speech in favour of illimitable expenditure and national bankruptcy. There was not a country in Europe that was not pregnant with revolution and anarchy; and at last the hon. Gentleman treated the House with a grand dissolving view of France, and for the general exercise of our | popular Minister-he may have a majoinfluence for reduction on that subject; rity of 200 in this House; but if his and even last year, when the famous Vote policy is that two and two make five, the of £250,000, the misappropriation of time will come when all his majorities which I have just mentioned, was under will not be able to maintain him in his consideration, I then said I could not pride of place. I admit, that if there was comprehend why some steps should not any state of affairs of a very menacing be taken to put an end to that fatal character-if a general war were possible, rivalry of armaments between the two if the principal countries of Europe were countries; and I said, "What is the agitated and warlike-I admit that under use of our diplomatic agents-what is the such circumstances economical considerause of our cordial alliance-if you cannot tions, and even economical principles, must come to some sensible arrangement for the be discarded. But these considerations and reduction of those forces, which are ex- principles are to regulate us in what I hope hausting France, and which are embar- is still the natural condition of humanity rassing England?" Therefore the obser- -a state of peace. In the hour of exivation of the hon. Gentleman who intro-gency you must, no doubt, run great duced the Motion is unfounded, and only risks-you must do many bold and someshows that his mind is of that rhetorical times imprudent things, even in finance. character which sometimes induces hon. But is there anything in the state of Europe Gentlemen to sacrifice to point in debate at present that justifies, that calls for, that that attention to accurate details, which, even intimates, the necessity of extravagant on the whole, is the most valuable quality and extraordinary armaments? That is in a practical assembly. After the finan- a question which, I think, ought to be cial statement of the Chancellor of the answered. Exchequer after having myself brought the condition, I think the perilous condition, of our finances before the Houseafter the visit of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to Manchester, in which he himself did that which I am perfectly willing to admit he had before done in this House, called the attention of the country to "the unhealthy condition of the finances," I might as well have accept-cosmopolitan chaos which the noble Lord ed the Chiltern Hundreds as have sat silent and stupid on this bench without making the remarks I did make, and without counselling a course which, although the noble Lord may try to get rid of it by Parliamentary menaces, or by some other stale hocus-pocus of faction, let me tell him can no more be ultimately evaded than we can evade that fate which awaits us all. Remember this, that financial embarrassment is not a subject to be got rid of by a Vote of the House of Commons. It is not like the question of the propriety or policy of an ancient institution. You may form a party in defence of an ancient institution; and if you have a majority of the country with you, you will be successful; but if you have only a minority, it may be long before you discover it, and before your opponents discover it, and a thousand things may occur to prevent a decision. But where there is financial embarrassment the results are certain, and comparatively speaking immediate, and a Minister may be a most seemed to welcome with alacrity and glee, feeling that such a state of permanent disorder must give him an illimitable tenure of the office which he now fills. But I must take, I believe, a more practical, and certainly a more prosaic view, of the condition of Europe. I cannot throw my prophetic glance over slumbering Sclavonic populations. I will leave for the moment even the unity of Italy to the care of the noble Lord. The noble Lord told me the other night that he had observed that no generous word of sympathy or approbation ever came from me in favour of the Italians. That cannot be said of the noble Lord. Words enough he has given to the Italians, but what more he has given them the Italians know best. If all the encouragement they have received, and all the assistance they have had in their hard fortunes, were those furnished by the noble Lord, I doubt very much whether they would occupy the position which they now hold. But I must recur to a more prosaic aspect of Europe, and I want to know what we find there that subject the noble Lord is perfectly to justify extravagant and extraordinary wrong. It is not when the Estimates armaments? Europe is tranquil because are before us that the House of Commons Europe is exhausted. You have had has ever thought of interfering. When4,000,000 of armed men for fifteen years, ever the House has interfered, and with more or less, in possession of Europe. good effect, it so happens that all the And what is the consequence of the Estimates had been passed. And the expenditure which such a state of things noble Lord ought to have known someinvolves? Under ordinary circumstances thing about this, because he was a Memone would rather avoid making any allu- ber of the House of Commons in 1816, sion to the pecuniary condition of other and must recollect the time when the States. But we need have no delicacy in income tax was repealed. That was the present state of public affairs, because not done in Committee of supply. The all the great Powers parade their embar- Estimates had been passed. It was in rassment and exhaustion in the eyes of Committee of Ways and Means, after Europe. Where is Austrian finance? the Estimates had been passed that the I refer you only to the statements of House of Commons at once threw out her own Ministers and her own budgets. £16,000,000 of taxes. And in more reWhere is Russian finance? I will not cent times, when the present Minister for pursue the picture, though I might say, Foreign Affairs was First Lord of the what is the financial condition of even Treasury, and himself brought forward a that Imperial France that is thrown in budget in this House-when he proposed our face as a bugbear on all occasions? that the income tax should be raised to Why, 4,000,000 of armed men in Europe 12d., for example-the Supplies had alfor fifteen years have exhausted and im- ready been voted, and it was in Committee poverished Europe. This is not a moment of Ways and Means that the House told to be speculating on the revolutions of Scla- the noble Lord he should not have that vonic populations; but for England, of all additional 5d. to the income tax; and the countries in the world, to remember noble Lord revised all his Estimates, and well that which has been the prime and adapted them to the position in which chief source of her influence in Europe the decision of the House had placed in old days, the consciousness in every him. And therefore the routine lecture State, in every Court of Europe, that if a of the noble Lord, though it is of no struggle came, and England entered into it, great importance, is not correct. The Comit was not the first, nor the second, nor the mittee of Supply is not the right or the third campaign that would daunt her; but necessary occasion for the House to interproud in the elasticity of her resources fere. But it may be said, why did you not and in the inexhaustible riches of her in- interfere in Committee of Ways and dustry, and freedom, she could enter into a Means? It is not very easy to do so contest from which she would never swerve, now in Committee of Ways and Means, and in which she would ever be the victor. when the privileges of the House of ComSir, these are times for economy-they mons have been so singularly and successare times for a scrutinizing revision of our fully vindicated that you have £22,000,000 expenditure, because we, from the state of of taxation brought before you in a single our finances, are forced to consider the sub-measure. Nothing certainly is more noble ject, and to face our condition, and because than our position, having vindicated our I believe that revision can be made with a privileges against the House of Lords; view to retrenchment without in the least but as to asserting our privileges in bedegree impairing or compromising, as the half of our constituents, I am afraid, in words of the Resolution have it, either our consequence of our triumph, the chances defences at home or our influence and of that are very much diminished; and interests abroad. Well, Sir, under these therefore I was of opinion, that as we had circumstances, who can be surprised that passed the Estimates, it was, the condition of our expenditure should whole, better to pass the Ways and Means. occupy the attention of Parliament? The And the necessary consequence of that was, noble Lord says to-night-it is the old that the conduct of the Government has story-"You ought to have interfered been condoned, so that we can bring no when the Estimates were before you." charge of unnecessary expenditure against It is a matter of no great importance, the Government. But equally did I feel but I must be allowed to say that on that when the condition of the finances on the But was revealed to us, and when we had tolerated by a suffering people? no reason to believe that there was any- what will happen if month after month thing in our external relations to justify the people are less employed, if your great expenditure, it was our inevit- trade decreases more and more, if your able duty to consider our financial po- revenue still continue to fall, and Parsition. I say, Sir, that nothing could liament be still silent, and there is no have justified reserve on our part in this means by which the apprehensions of the matter unless Her Majesty's Government people can be expressed and explained? had come forward and told us that the Will that keep even the noble Lord a condition of Europe was one of so dan- popular Minister? The people will say, gerous and critical a character that that "We will go to those who proffer us adexpenditure was necessary. Her Ma- vice; Parliament is silent-we will go to jesty's Government did nothing of the the platform; statesmen have deserted us kind. Her Majesty's Government are not -we will go to the agitator." This is bound to impart to Parliament the secret what they will do. The right hon. Geninformation on which their policy is tleman the Secretary of State (Sir G. framed. Nobody asks anything so un- Lewis) with too quick a sneer, thought he reasonable from Her Majesty's Govern- had detected me in some petty political ment. But Her Majesty's Government manœuvre. I regret that a man in so are bound to do this if they think the eminent a position could not, in the prestate of our foreign affairs to be serious sent position of the country, elevate his and menacing, they are bound to convey mind and enlarge his vision a little more. that impression to Parliament, although I should like to see the countenance of the they are not bound to state the grounds Secretary of State-I forget at this mowhich have led them to arrive at that ment for what department-they change so conclusion. But have they given us any often-but I should like to see his countesuch intimation? Nothing of the kind. nance, if we have to go through a long I infer from my own observation, and, lugubrious autumn, followed by a dark from the silence of the Government on the and gloomy winter. Will your answer subject-when silence would be a crime- to an alarmed and suffering people be, that the prospect of foreign affairs is that there has been a vote of confidence not one that justifies such expenditure. passed in the House of Commons, gained The House knows, therefore, that it by a surprise, moved by the Prime Miniscould not have been brought more natu- ter himself, and expressed in the queerest rally to the consideration of our expendi- language man can conceive? In the ture than it has been by the events and course of the last few weeks I have on circumstances of the last seven or eight more than one occasion, brought our weeks. And even if the Ministers are silent financial position before the House, and I now if they allow this discussion to be have drawn from it the inevitable concrushed do you think the House can clusion that a reduction of our expendiescape further discussion? What will ture was necessary. I have taken, as I the country say? You represent, many think, a wise and proper position under of you, the suffering districts, and there these circumstances. I have shown that is no district in the country, if the pre- the House of Commons was estopped from sent state of things continues, that will founding any charge against Her Majesty's not suffer. And what will be the con- Government on these matters in consesequences of that suffering? You will quence of its own conduct; but I have read the consequences in the monthly expressed my hope that under these circumreturns of the Board of Trade; in every stances Her Majesty's Government would return of the monthly exports and imports, take some step satisfactory to the Houseevery quarterly publication of the state and I now repeat that I think they ought of your revenue. These documents will be to have done so. There were many Parliapublic. And if Parliament is sitting, do mentary courses which they might have you think we can have a repetition of pursued. They might have proposed the such documents and remain silent? Do appointment of a Finance Committeeyou think it possible then that a Prime they might have proposed a Resolution Minister should get up and say, "You themselves. It was clear that on the part who discuss the distress of the country express a want of confidence in the Ministry"-do you think that will be in -- of the House of Commons there should be the greatest forbearance, and nothing but extreme necessity could justify us in asserting our opinion in the form of a | Is the hon. Member for Halifax prepared Resolution. But suddenly up jumps the to take all the responsibility of his Resohon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) lution, supposing it to turn out the Goand places a Resolution on the paper vernment? I have not yet heard that which is to solve all difficulties. I have due he is so prepared, and I am not prepared respect for the hon. Member; but I never to vote a want of confidence in the Goknew until to-night that the hon. Member vernment, proposed by a Gentleman who was the great apostle of reduction and re- will immediately shrink from the retrenchment. I have passed many hours here sponsibility which, if successful, would when the public money was being voted, devolve upon him. If I wished directly and I have not remarked his frequent to express a want of confidence in the Goattendance. I cannot recall any word he vernment of the noble Lord, I should myever uttered on the subject. But to-night self propose, or ask some Friend to assist he spoke with the indignation of a man me in that respect. If this Resolution, whose monopoly of economical wisdom has therefore, is one of want of confidence, it been invaded as if we were poachers on is one which I could not support. But his financial manor. He is to secure the if it does imply want of confidence, how reduction and obtain the retrenchment de- far is it likely to lead to that administrasirable by stirring up a blazing war in every tive improvement and that reduction and quarter of Europe. The Resolution of the retrenchment we desire? Why, it leads hon. Gentleman declares, "That in the to nothing; it indicates no object-it exopinion of this House the national expen- presses no purpose-it shadows forth no diture is capable of reduction without com- policy. Therefore I will say for it that it promising the safety, the independence, or is hardly worthy the numerous Amendthe legitimate influence of the country." ments which some how or other it has The Resolution is only saved from the im- called forth. There is one by a noble putation of being an abstract Resolution Friend to which, I confess, at first I did by the absolute declaration that the expen- not attach any idea. My noble Friend diture of the country is capable of reduc- has since explained it to me, and, with tion. Why! cut down a gauger-that that explanation, I think it partially deis reduction! and we find that if we do serves, under some circumstances, some not take a certain course, the country will consideration; because the first part of be compromised. What does that mean? it expresses that "Her Majesty's GoWe have heard of a lady being " compro- vernment are alone responsible to the mised;" and have always been sorry for House for the Supplies which they ask it: for my part I never believe these the House to grant." I understand that stories; but fancy this country, great and to refer to a theory prevalent some little glorious England, being "compromised"! time ago in this House, that Her MaAnd the most extraordinary thing con- jesty's Government were not responsible nected with this Resolution is, that it for the sums they recommended to be seems to be supposed a noble Friend of voted. It refers to a mischievous error mine called his friends together to con- of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But sider whether they should support it! It the Chancellor of the Exchequer has since is a Resolution of little meaning, and that appeared in his place in a white sheet, unsatisfactorily expressed. The Resolu- and the taper of penitence in his hand, tion is either an expression of want of and cried "Peccavi." I am ready to confidence in the Minister, or a means by accept his assurances that he shares in which we may actually obtain some re- all the responsibility of the expenditure trenchment. I will consider it under he proposes, and therefore, under the both these heads. Placing a different in- circumstances, I cannot see the necesterpretation upon it from that of the noble sity of the Amendment of the noble Lord-placing that interpretation upon Lord the Member for Huntingdonshire. it which ninety-nine men out of every Then there is another Amendment, which hundred would do-I will consider it is in its time made considerable noise, an expression of want of confidence in although I understand we shall hear no the Government. Well, I think that no more about it. But although it comes person has a right to bring forward a Re- from an hon. Gentleman (Mr. Horsman) solution of want of confidence in any Go--than whom no one is more qualified vernment who is not prepared to stand by to address the House and enforce his all the responsibility of such a proceeding. counsels, which he always does with serves with satisfaction the decrease which has already been effected in the national expenditure." Upon the principle that it is no use talking of what has passed, I was perfectly prepared to vote for that in the amended Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole); but still, as we have got into criticism, I am bound to say to the House that there is not a word of truth in it. For reasons which I will give the House when the proper time comes, we would not, in the Amendment, disturb a single word of the Resolution of the noble Lord, which we could avoid altering, and we passed over expressions which many of my friends did not approve, and language to which I could not help objecting on the ground of veracity. Let us come to the Resolution of the noble Lord-"We observe with satisfaction the decrease which has already been effected in the national expenditure." The figures are very shortly stated, and they are very instructive. Our expenditure in 1860-1 was £72,521,825. I deduct from that ex ability and eloquence-and although I will not contest on the part of the late Government that the expenditure which they recommended was perfectly justifiable, I must be allowed to say, that while our expenditure in 1859 was considerable, and we were prevented suggesting the ways and means to meet it by a remarkable incident which occurred in this House, yet, after we quitted office, it was increased by our successors. I therefore think any jury would fairly conclude that we were justified; but I do not solicit, however honoured and gratified I might be, the formal verdict of the House in that respect. I am not at all prepared to agree that the expenditure of the present Government has been justified. But, as I said the other night, what is the use of talking about the past? What we want to know is, what is to be done at present and for the future? In the prospect of continuous deficits how are we to make both ends meet? I have no comment to make on the Amendment of the hon Member who sits up aloft (Mr. D. Griffith). I will come, then, to the Amend-penditure some items, and I am sure the ment of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), who, having on several occasions, expressed his opinion that there ought to be no Resolution whatever upon the subject, consistently concludes by proposing two Resolutions, and accompanies the proposal of those two Resolutions with the lamest and most unsatisfactory reasons to account for them; because it was perfectly open to the noble Lord to meet the Resolution of the hon. Member for Halifax and any succeeding Amendment which became a substantive Motion by the simple negative. It was not the least necessary for the noble Lord to bring forward any Resolutions; but if he did, he should, at least, have brought forward satisfactory ones. Are these Resolutions satisfactory? The noble Lord is deeply "impressed with the necessity of economy in every department of the State"-well, that is the first time I ever heard he was. He may talk of eating the leek, but I think that is a supper which may satisfy even an Opposition. Well, the noble Lord, being "deeply impressed with the necessity of economy in every department of the State, is at the same time mindful of its obligations to provide for the security of the country at home, and the protection of its interests abroad." I think it is more than an obligation; but let that pass. The noble Lord says, "This House ob House will recognise their fairness. I de- |