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COLONEL FRENCH: I rise to order. The right hon. Member is now discussing prematurely a Motion which stands upon the books of the House. There is no Question before the House; for my noble Friend at the head of the Government, though he intimated his intention to conclude his speech with a Motion, did not do so.

the principle avowed in the notice of my noble Friend have done otherwise than Motion given by the hon. Member for he has done? I cannot understand a Halifax, but the blame of excessive ex- Minister sitting on these benches, and penditure is not chargeable on the pre- accepting from the other side of the House sent or any other Government; it is the a Resolution defining the terms and confault of this House. For several years ditions on which he is to carry on the we have been pursuing a reckless course Government. I could understand my noble of expenditure-not only, as hon. Gen-Friend if he were much given to accepting tlemen below the gangway assert, with abstract Resolutions agreeing to the first regard to the military and naval estab- Motion which was put upon the Journals; lishments, the outlay upon which may but I could not understand him concurprobably be necessary, but also upon the ring in that of the right hon. Member for Civil Estimates. Once or twice I endea- Stroud, much less in that of my right hon. voured to stop what I thought most use- Friend opposite, although I quite admit less expenditure. his disclaimer of the imputation which I think it conveys. I cannot help saying that in the present state of affairs at home and abroad it is, I think, our duty to give strength to the Government, instead of weakening its hands by expressing doubts and limiting our confidence. However we may differ in this House with regard to particular administrative acts and to questions of relative economy, out of this House there is no man who does not think that the right man sits in the right place on the front Treasury bench. I believe if I were to ask the majority of people out of the House they would be of the same opinion. Then do not let this House agree by implication to anything that would weaken the hands of that Minister. What we want is not a Government from this or from that side of the House, but a Government which, in the opinion of the world, has the confidence of this House. If my noble Friend does not possess the confidence of the House, let that be distinctly stated, and let us have a Minister who does; but do not let us in the present difficult circumstances in which the world is placed, weaken the hands of the Government in whom the affairs of this country are placed.

MR. ELLICE (Coventry): I am not going to debate-[Cries of Order! and Chair!]

MR. SPEAKER: All I can say is that the irregularity will become very great presently.

MR. ELLICE (Coventry): Well, Sir, I move that this House do adjourn. ["Oh, oh!" I was about to say that for the great expenditure which has been made I do not blame the Government so much as I blame the House; and that I think my noble Friend has taken the manly and right course, and put himself right with the House in stating the exact terms to which he would be willing to accede in reference to a Motion for the promotion of economy in the national expenditure. Then comes the Amendment moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole), and of course I am bound to believe him when he states that he had not the least intention of making this Motion in any hostile spirit towards the Government. But look at the words of the Motion. The Amendment goes to this extent, that the House thinks it necessary to impress on Her Majesty's Government the necessity of economy. That is virtually saying that the Government are not willing to engage seriously in the work of economy without pressure. I do not mean to say that is the intention of my right hon. Friend, but it is the inference which may be legitimately drawn from the words of his Amendment. Could

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."

MR. SPEAKER: I regret to have to address the House once more on a point of order. It was competent to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, as leader of this House, to address hon. Gentlemen who had Amendments on the paper in reference to the proceedings of the evening. The noble Lord, moreover, made a Motion for the adjournment of the House. After that motion was disposed of, an irregular conversation took place, and the hon. Member who last rose to order was perfectly correct in his statement that on a Motion for the adjourn

ment of the House it is irregular to dis- I notice of my Resolution. I do not think cuss subjects that stand on the paper of it my province to discuss the comparative the day. To enter into a general discus- merits or demerits of those Amendments. sion on the subject-matter of the even- What I have to do is to justify and defend ing, was not in order. I trust, therefore, the Resolution for which I am myself rethat the House will allow me to put the sponsible. There have been certain objecMotion, that the right hon. Gentleman tions made, which may be made again towho made it will immediately withdraw night, to the method and the time of my it, and that the hon. Member for Halifax proceeding. It has been said that it is will be allowed to proceed with his Mo- an inconsistent proceeding to enter upon a tion. discussion of the expenditure of the country at a time when all the Estimates have already been passed through Committee. of Supply. But, Sir, I venture to think that the appropriateness in point of time of the discussion is, after all, to be judged mainly with reference to the temper of

MR. ELLICE (Coventry), expressed his readiness to withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. ROEBUCK: We shall adjourn tonight to meet to-morrow morning, which no hon. Member intends to do. ["Order,

order!"]

MR. SPEAKER: The Motion for the adjournment has been made and disposed of. MR. ROEBUCK: It has never been put. ["Order!"]

MR. HORSMAN: Are we to understand that the noble Lord will move his Amendment after the Motion has been proposed

and seconded?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: In reply to my right hon. Friend I have to say that I cannot enter into any engagement of that

kind.

MR. HORSMAN: Then I cannot enter into an undertaking to withdraw Amendment.

NATIONAL EXPENDITURE.

RESOLUTION.

my

MR. STANSFELD: Sir, if the question of confidence in the Government should be raised in the course of this debate, it is at least not raised by the Motion which I shall have the honour of submitting to the House. That Motion was placed upon the paper in the conviction that the time had at length arrived when it had become possible, and highly necessary, that both the House and the Government should reconsider the expenditure of the country with a view to its reduction. And, Sir, I submit the Resolution now also in the belief that it is the best contribution which I can make towards the attainment of so desirable an end. It is to the sincerity of that purpose alone that I can appeal, and do appeal, as my justification to the House in occupying on this occasion a prominence and responsibility from which otherwise I should shrink. There have been certain -there have been numerous-Amendments placed on the paper since I gave

the time; and that, when the mind of the House begins to concentrate and gather itself round a given question, that above all times is the most fitting time and occasion for those who take a special interest in it to bring it under the consideration of the House. Now, Sir, I might point to the Amendments as a proof of the opportuneness of the Motion which I am about to make; but I will go back to the time when I placed my notice on the paper, and justify my act by the circum

stances which then existed. At that time

there was already a consciousness pervading the minds of the House and the country that our peace expenditure had reached a maximum, and that it was necessary to check and to reduce it. Why, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already gone, as it was said, to the very verge of what was consistent with collective Ministerial responsibility, both in this House and out of it, to warn back the country from the course of ever-increased expenditure on which we have for some time been proceeding. The leader of the Opposition had already been making haste to reap the fruits of an expected disaster, to which his own party had contributed as potently as any party or any section of a party. But it may be said, "If the time for this discussion be appropriate, it is impossible to defend a Resolution condemning as a whole the expenditure to which the House has already consented in detail." Now, Sir, I might confine myself, in replying to this objection, to reminding the House that I have not been so foolish as to ask it to stultify itself by condemning any specified Estimates, whose responsibility now rests, not only upon the Government, but upon the House; but I have no desire to fence with this objection. It is not an unnatu

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ral or unfair one; and I will meet it in | or less open to objection for a Motion of the fullest and frankest way. Sir, it is this kind than when, the Estimates of the no more nor no less than a question of year having been already accepted by the sincerity of purpose and good faith. If House, it is impossible to pervert the octhere be any among us who, having ap- casion to a want of confidence in the Goproved our late expenditure-who, having vernment, and when the Government is done more, stimulated it to its utmost not pledged to any Estimates that may be growth-now seize on this opportunity to affected by the conclusion at which the profess a regard to economy solely with a House may arrive? I do not, therefore, party or a personal object, I, for one, de- look at this year's Estimates, in the Movoutly hope that they may be in the issue tion that I have made, save as one of a disappointed and deceived; but if there series of Estimates, and as part of a conare others among us who have long thought tinuous expenditure for which not only that our expenditure is excessive-if there the present, but the preceding Governare those of us who think that the time ment—and not only the preceding Governhas arrived for revision and reduction ment, but the House-and not only the -I see no reason why we should not House, but, in a certain sense and degree, be at liberty to seize on a time and an the country are also responsible. If hon. occasion which have become, I think, Members will refer to a very useful and most propitious for the accomplishment of admirably-conceived Return obtained last the object which we have in view. But, Session by the hon. Baronet the Member Sir, I cannot let the matter rest here. for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), I am prepared to maintain that the sub- they will see at a glance the march of the mission of what is called an abstract growth of our expenditure. The Return Resolution, with the discussion which it dates as far back as 1835, but it is not implies, is precisely the most fitting and necessary to take the House back to that appropriate course for those of us who date. There is an intermediate date at are specially interested in the question which a sudden and immense expansion of of economy to pursue. I am one of those our Estimates contrasts in a marked manwho, ever since the first short Session mer with the previous gradually-swelling when I had the honour to take my seat growth of those Estimates, responsive to in this House, have been accustomed to the increase in the wealth and prosperity look at the process by which our Estimates of the country. I will take the year preare said to be discussed in Committee ceding the Crimean war. In the year with a feeling akin to hopelessness and 1853, the total Votes agreed to in Comdespair. Night after night the House is mittee of Supply for the Army and Naval supposed to be applying itself seriously to Services, putting out of question a Supplea consideration and revision of those Esti- mentary Vote of £200,000 for the Caffre mates; yet I know of no case in which war, amounted to £17,235,154. In the by this process the Estimates have been year 1861, not taking into account a Supseriously modified or reduced. The truth is, plementary Vote of £1,000,000 for the that the amount of the Military and Naval China war, £53,431 for the Russian war, Estimates of which I am now speaking and nearly £1,000,000 on account of the -is decided by general views of policy, mail packet service, which had appeared which cannot be discussed in Committee at former periods in the Naval Votes-in of Supply. If those views are once taken 1861 the cost of the army and naval serfor granted, the Estimates which depend vices had risen to £27,550,001. on them, as far as the revision of this what is the explanation of that sudden House is concerned, a few reservations ex- and enormous rise? I desire to state its cepted, pass almost as a matter of course. origin, because it is the very starting-point So that it comes to this-that the discus- of what I have to say on this question. sion of Estimates in Committee of Supply The early disasters of the Crimean war, is useless and meaningless unless it be con- the temporary collapse of our military nected with, and unless it arise out of, system, on its first trial after a long peace, discussions on other and more fitting oc- before the eyes of Europe, and by the side casions about those great principles and of France, went straight to the heart of general views of policy which really go- the people of this country, and back from vern the amount of those Estimates. And, the heart of this great people-and let not if this be so, I venture to put it to the those of us who recognise the fact, disHouse what time could be more fitting guise it for a moment, either from others

Now,

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ing a rich harvest in the reduction of the expenditure of the country?

or from ourselves-back from the heart of demanded the efficiency and sufficiency of the people, spontaneous and direct, came our armaments. Are we entitled to ask the responsive cry for efficiency at any of public opinion that at one and the same cost. Now, in what manner have we, the time it should demand that efficiency, and House of Commons, and in what manner itself take the initiative in calling for all have successive Governments, responded possible economy in carrying that efficiency to that appeal? In what manner have we into effect? Here begin the functions of played our part, and accepted our respon- the House as a representative and delisibility? In what respect have we failed, berative assembly-not parrot-like, to reand what is there that remains for us peat the public cry and leave all to the to do? That is the question we have to Government of the day, but to consider discuss to-night. Sir, we have heard a something of greater importance than any good deal lately about the various func- individual Votes in Committee of Supply tions of public opinion, of the House, and the great questions of the cost, the of the Government in this matter of public policy, and method of those armaments expenditure. The Chancellor of the Ex- that may be deemed necessary for the purchequer has lately warned the country poses of the country. And if such is the back on the cost of our ever-increasing joint responsibility of the House and the expenditure, and I believe that the coun- Government, I ask both whether the time try will respond to that appeal. But the has not arrived when we ought to turn Chancellor of the Exchequer has been our minds from that sole question of effiblamed-nay, has been violently attacked, ciency on which they have been riveted so for having, as it is alleged, endeavoured long, and give our attention to the questo place on the shoulders of the people a tion of economy, with the conviction that responsibility that ought to rest upon the there lies our future work, and that it is Government alone; and he has been ac-impossible to enter upon it without reapcused of unconstitutional doctrine and political immorality for endeavouring to evade the responsibility with which he Sir, if the House has gone with me so ought rightly to be fixed. A theory, on far, I will now ask its attention to the the other hand, has been brought forward financial question. I am aware it may which would absolve the Opposition and be said that our Naval and Military the House from any responsibility for the Estimates are based, not on the financial, Estimates which they have approved, and but on the military exigencies of the year. which would have fixed it on the Govern- But that is not, I think, altogether true. ment alone. That may be a very conve- We all know that the cost of our services nient theory for an Opposition-namely, grows by no means in proportion to our to grant all the Estimates that a Govern- needs, but rather in proportion to the growth ment may demand-nay, individual Mem- of the wealth and prosperity of the counbers of that Opposition urging on to the try. The tendency of the services is, I am utmost the amount of these Estimates- afraid, to take all they can get; and if reserving to themselves the right, and we are entering on the question of ecorejoicing in the expectation, of making nomy, it is merely on financial grounds. political capital out of their very mag- But the financial question is of the very nitude when the tide of public opinion essence of the subject of national defence, shall have turned. But I venture to because, if you exceed a due proportion denounce such a policy as being to the between the resources of the country and full as unconstitutional and politically its warlike expenditure, you introduce an immoral as that which has been wrongly element, not of strength, but of weakness, charged against the Chancellor of the into the condition of the country. I must, Exchequer. Sir, there is no difficulty, if therefore, ask the attention of the House we look at this question in good faith, to the question of the great total of our in understanding the different functions expenditure. Sir, taking the average of of the public, the House of Commons, and the last few years, our expenditure has the Government. What, in the first place, reached the amount of £70,000,000 stermay we fairly expect of public opinion? ling. Now, I ask, what is the meaning Why, we know that the great masses move of these figures? I think I can put this on great and simple lines, and so it is with in a shape that will reach the comprehengreat aggregates of public opinion. At sion of most men. A sum of £70,000,000 the time of which I speak, public opinion represents an income tax of 6s. in the

pound. Take the wages of a working | drain on our Exchequer, the growth of the man at the high average of £1 per week, expenditure at last threatens to exceed the and assume his family to number five per- growth of the revenue, and new taxes or resons. £70,000,000 a year means the duced expenditure is the alternative which wages, sustenance, clothing, and educa- stares us in the face. I ask, then, whether tion of 7,000,000 of the population of any Government, or any party in the House these islands. We are in the habit of or the country, is prepared to take its looking at figures very differently from stand upon the imposition of new war different points of view. We have been taxes to keep up our expenditure in time in the habit of speaking of the marvellous of peace? We have heard something of proportions and growth of our commerce exceptional circumstances. It is true that with feelings of something like wonder there have been exceptional circumstances and astonishment. In 1860 the amount tending to diminish during the last year of our exports of British produce reached the productiveness of our revenue; it is a grand total of £136,000,000 sterling; true also that there have been exceptional but what proportion of that gross value circumstances to cause an additional drain represented the profit out of which we upon our Exchequer, of which the wars had to spare? What portion of it repre- in China and New Zealand and the draughtsented the wages paid for labour? What ing of our troops to Canada are the most portion of it represented the hard cash recent examples. But I put this question paid down for the raw materials imported to the House-when did we ever know into this country before that labour was four or five years without exceptional cirbestowed on it? I have seen a calcula- cumstances? Is it not of the very A B C tion, in accordance with which the total of economy in private expenditure to aveearnings, in the shape of wages and sala- rage such charges-exceptional, because ries, in the vastest industry which the varying in their nature, but constant, beworld has ever known-the cotton trade cause ever recurring-and to take them and manufactures of this country, with all into account? But I will put the quesits dependent and subsidiary trades-taken tion still more home. Have we any reaat the point of highest prosperity, reached son to suppose that the future will have the amount of some £25,000,000 a year. less claims upon us in this respect than More than that amount is now yearly swal- the present has? Look to the condition lowed up by the Naval and Military Esti- of the Northern States of America, bemates of the country in time of peace; and coming, for the first time in their history, thus it comes to pass that the whole of this a great naval and military Power. Is vast industry, that all the labours of these there anything there in the proximate teeming hives of men who make England future likely to lessen the demands upon what she is, go for nothing set against this our warlike expenditure? Come back to vast expenditure in the ultimate balance- Europe-look at the condition of Italy. sheet of the nation. And now I put my How soon is Italy to have Venice and first question to the House-Is this ex- Rome? Sir, the prospect is not immedipenditure to be justified as a normal and ately cheering, and dark indeed would it permanent expenditure in time of peace? be were the destinies of Italy confided, so Turn for a moment to our taxation. We far as the influence of this country can have of late years repealed many taxes, affect them, to the tender mercies of the but not so as to render less prolific any leader of the Opposition. Look again to one of the great classified sources of reve- the east of Europe, to those aggregate nue. In the year 1847 we raised a net people, half tribes and half nationalities, revenue of £51,500,000, and in 1861 a which constitute the provinces of the Ausnet revenue of £64,000,000. There is an trian and Turkish empires. Is there increase in the revenue of £12,500,000, among us any one, accustomed to look beand out of that only £4,000,000 are to be yond the shores of these islands to think accounted for by the rise in the rate of of all that is passing around us on the income tax. But though our revenue has Continent of Europe, who does not recogbeen thus elastic and productive-though nise, who does not feel, that there are we have maintained certain war duties on elements of disturbance there, most diffiincome, on sugar, and on tea, to keep it cult to reconcile, which are likely for up to this amount-and though we have years to come to be causes of expenditure rightly, as I conceive, availed ourselves to others, and indirectly to ourselves? of certain temporary resources to meet the Now, am I cutting the ground from under

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