that those hon. Gentlemen who have interposed Amendments between that Resolution and the Amendment of which the Government has given notice, would perhaps be kind enough to waive their privilege of precedence, and allow the House at once to come to a discussion of the great political question which has been raised by the other side. Sir, I beg to move that the House at its rising adjourn till Thursday.

[The following Motions had been placed upon the Notice Paper :-

"1. Mr. Stansfeld,-National Expenditure,That, in the opinion of this House, the National Expenditure is capable of reduction without compromising the safety, the independence, or the legitimate influence of the country.

2. Lord Robert Montagu,-National Expenditure,-As an Amendment to Mr. Stansfeld's

Motion:

"That Her Majesty's Government alone are responsible to the House for the Supplies which Her Majesty asks the House to grant, and that this House alone is responsible for the sums which

have been voted.

"3. Mr. Horsman,-National Expenditure,

As an Amendment to Mr. Stansfeld's Motion :"That this House, while deeply impressed with the necessity of economy in every Department of the State, and especially mindful of that necessity in the present condition of the Country and its Finances, is of opinion, that the sums voted under the present and late Administrations, in the Naval and Military Service of the Country, have not been greater than are required for its security at Home, and the protection of its interests Abroad. “4. Mr. Griffith,—National Expenditure,-As an Amendment to Mr. Horsman's Amendment :

"To leave out all the words after its Finances,' and to insert the words, will always be ready to make every pecuniary sacrifice that may be necessary to maintain the honour, the interests, and the independence of the Country.'

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU: Sir, I should certainly be glad to meet the wishes of the noble Viscount, and to consult the convenience of the House as far as I can. It is quite true that I did not give notice of my Motion in a spirit of hostility to the Government, nor, indeed, had it reference to any party or section in this House. It sprang solely from a sincere and honest desire to promote economy in the financial arrangements of the country in the only way in which that seemed possible - by insuring a better attendance of Members in Committee of Supply. I am exceedingly sorry to hear from the noble Viscount that this question is about to be converted into the stalking-horse of ambition, and the prostitute of our claims to power. I think it is a great mistake that such an issue should be raised on a matter that is really of the most vital importance to the country. I was present at the meeting of yesterday to which reference has been made, and I can assure the noble Viscount that no Amendment was either originated or discussed at the meeting; nor was that view taken of the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, in which the noble Viscount now says it is regarded. On the contrary, it was plainly stated at that meeting that this was not to become a party question, and that Lord Derby had no desire to turn out or "6. Mr. Walpole,-National Expenditure,- embarrass the Government. I can only On Mr. Stansfeld's Resolution, in case it is negatived, and Viscount Palmerston's Amendment is say, that if this is to be treated as a put as a substantive Motion, to move to amend party move, and if we are not to be the second paragraph of such Amendment by allowed to consider in a free and unleaving out all the words after the words trusts fettered state whether economy cannot that, and inserting the following words, the be enforced by the House, I shall wash attention of the Government will be earnestly directed to the accomplishment of such further my hands of the whole business, and reduction, due regard being had to the defence of have nothing to say to any of the Amendthe Country, as may not only equalize the Reve-ments before the House. I have no ob

"5. Viscount Palmerston,-Ñational Expenditure,-Amendment as substitute for Mr. Stansfeld's Resolution :

"That this House, deeply impressed with the necessity of economy in every Department of the State, is at the same time mindful of its obligation to provide for the security of the Country at Home and the protection of its interests Abroad: the decrease which has already been effected in the National Expenditure, and trusts that such further diminution may be made therein as the future stage of things may warrant.

"That this House observes with satisfaction

jection to withdraw my Amendment on the understanding, that if the other hon. Members who stand before the noble Viscount decline to do the same, I shall be at liberty to bring it forward.

the past, and some confidence for the future. Now, that raises an entirely new issue. For my own part, not having approved the financial policy of the Government, but having of late carefully abstainMR. HORSMAN: I must own that I ed from taking part in any discussion of heard the speech of the noble Viscount it, I felt that the Amendment of the with some surprise, because the issue Government placed me in a difficult which he has placed before us was one for position. The Government having prowhich I was certainly not prepared. I posed that issue, I do not see how it need not say, as the noble Lord has just was possible for the other side to meet it, said, that my Amendment was not framed except by an Amendment. My right hon. in any spirit of hostility to the Government Friend the Member for Cambridge Uni-in fact, that the noble Viscount felt versity (Mr. Walpole) adopts the views of that it was more flattering than he de- the noble Viscount with regard to finance, served is evident from the tenure of his economy, and retrenchment, but substiown proposal. Certainly, until I heard the tutes precise and explicit terms for the notice of my right hon. Friend yesterday, vague language of the Government Amendit was my intention to have persevered ment, and indicates in what quarter a in my Amendment; I did not think that reduction should be effected. I have not I ought to allow the noble Viscount's mo- heard any Gentleman on either side of desty to stand in the way of my carrying the House expressing an opinion on this a Resolution which amounted to approval subject who has not said that, putting party of the policy of the Government. But feeling aside, ninety-nine out of every when I heard the notice which was given hundred Members in the House would yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman prefer the Amendment of the right hon. (Mr. Walpole), I felt that the noble Vis- Gentleman the Member for Cambridge count's claim to precedence was quite ir- University to that of the noble Viscount. resistible, and I have no hesitation in giving Perhaps I may express myself more strongway. I hope I may be permitted to say ly than I should do, because I have been one word on what has fallen so unexpec- so surprised by the decision of the noble tedly from the noble Viscount. I speak Viscount. Having received an intimation merely as one who shares the common in- that an appeal would be made to me to terest which we all have in the order gave way to the Amendment of the noble and regularity of the proceedings of this Viscount, I came down ready to accede to House, and have no interest whatever in the request, and without any intention of the party question. But, looking at the saying a word. But, when we are invited to Notices on the paper, I do not think that lay aside the great question of armaments, the noble Viscount is quite justified in and restrict ourselves to the issue whether the tone which he has imputed, or the one side of the House or the other is to colour which he has given to the Amend- govern the country-when we are asked ment of the right hon. Gentleman. When to do this merely because one Amendment I read the Amendment of the noble Lord has been met by another which it clearly in the Votes I immediately said that Go- challenged, I say that the situation is vernment had thrown away the advantage falsely construed, and that the House is of their position, and had delivered them- placed in a false position. I am not at all selves into the hands of the House. The disposed to give hon. Gentlemen opposite hon. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) credit for any very great degree of virraised a direct issue. He asks, what is to tuous forbearance, but, on this occasion, I be our policy with regard to armaments? do not believe there was any intention to Are we to retrace our steps and go turn out the Government, and I cannot back to a system of gradual disarma- see how they could have avoided proment, or are we to continue a system of posing an Amendment in answer to that progressive and improved defence? That of the noble Viscount. is the challenge of the hon. Member. MR. WALPOLE: I feel, Sir, that the But the noble Viscount does not seem to noble Viscount has placed not only myself me to meet it, for at the close of his -that would be a matter of no importance Amendment he adds an invitation to the-but he has placed the House in a posiHouse to express approval of the financial administration of the Government in

tion of great difficulty and embarrassment. I hope it is not necessary for me to state

Viscount moves his Amendment, I entreat him to allow the House a fair opportunity -not to do anything to thwart the Government, not to do anything to censure the Government, not to do anything to disturb the Government-but to allow the House a fair opportunity of determining for itself-and it is a question for this House alone to determine whether it will come to any resolution as to the mode and direction in which reduction is to be made, if at least reduction is to be made, and the finances of the country are hereafter to be administered, so as to bring our expenditure within our revenue, instead of leaving us in a financial condition which may be a matter of the greatest possible embarrassment to the country.

and I think my conduct in this House | undertake the responsibility of stating, at during the present and the last Session this moment, the particular course I shall would be sufficient to justify me in stating select in case the Amendment of the noble -that I had no intention to move any Viscount is moved. I hope, then, that Vote of censure or want of confidence in the House will think I am asking nothing the Government. If it had been intended improper if I request time for considerato propose a Vote of want of confidence I tion, and if I decline to express an opinion should not have been the man chosen on at this moment as to the course I shall this side of the House to bring it forward. feel it my duty to pursue. The Motion of I must tell the noble Viscount that it was the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stansfeld) will the last thing in my mind to bring for- probably go on. The Government may ward such a Motion. When the noble take what course they please upon that Viscount told the House that he consi- Motion, and they will have my support in dered the question now raised to be this-voting against it. But when the noble whether the Gentlemen on the one side of the House or the Gentlemen on the other side of the House are to be called upon to conduct the Government of this country, I feel that it is hardly possible for me-due regard being had to the duty of this House -to consider attentively the merits of such a question as this, being one of finance and expenditure. I repeat, Sir, it is almost impossible for me to know what the course is which, under the circumstances, I ought to take. On the one hand, if I persevere in my Amendment, I may be the means of unseating a Government which I do not intend to disturb. On the other hand, if I take an opposite course, I may preclude the House from expressing an opinion, which I feel the House ought to express, upon a most important question. Until this moment I was not in the least aware what course the Government intended to take in reference to my Amendment. Had I entertained an opinion on this question, it would have been this-that the Amendment of which I have given notice was in effect a complete support of the Government proposition against the Motion of the hon. Member for Halifax, only adding to that proposition such an intimation as I think this House ought to give. This Amendment is so framed that it should not be supposed to coerce or dictate to the Government, but rather to suggest, the proper course which it should pursue during the recess in reference to our expenditure and finances. The noble Viscount says he will not allow the House to consider the question, unless the House is also prepared to determine whether the Gentlemen sitting on this or those sitting on the other side shall conduct the affairs of the country. I say, Sir, that such an alteration in the course of our proceedings this evening is a serious one-nay, more, it is one of great gravity. I will not, then,

Mr. BRIGHT and Mr. DARBY GRIFFIHT rose, the House calling for Mr. BRIGHT.

MR. SPEAKER: I wish to remind the House of the exact state of business. There is no Question before the House. The Motion was disposed of before the noble Lord (Lord Robert Montagu) rose; but, as the noble Lord had been appealed to, I could not interfere to prevent his making his personal explanation to the House, and the same remark applies to the right hon. Gentlemen the Members for Stroud and for the University of Cambridge.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH: I beg to move, that the House do now adjourn.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is out of order in rising while I am addressing the House. I will leave it to the House to consider whether it is convenient that this preliminary discussion should proceed beyond those Members who have been personally appealed to. I again remind the House that there is no Question before it.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH (who spoke amid the impatience of the House): As I stand next in the list of Amendments on the paper, I hope that the House will

not have interposed between him and the noble Lord. In framing my Amendment, I had no feeling of hostility towards Her Majesty's Government. I am no party to any hostile movement, and I now understand that my right hon. Friend is equally free from any concern in it. This is a question of the defence or non-defence of the country. Upon that question I felt bound to go with the noble Lord in his first paragraph, but not to the whole extent of the second, because I feel most strongly, from a recent inspection, which has lasted several days up to last night, and I should consider it my duty as an

siderable retrenchments may be made. I shall take the earliest opportunity of mentioning to the House certain works which are going on, the expenditure on which would be unnecessary and ruinous, and would make the taxation more than the people could stand, and which, if constructed, would cause weakness, and not give strength to the country.

allow me the same opportunity of explain- | an Amendment when I put mine upon ing my Amendment which has been en- the paper. Had I done so, I should joyed by others. I confess that I have some reluctance to withdraw that Amendment, because it appears to me to be the best of all those that have been proposed. I will tell you the reason why-it distinctly raises the issue which has been adopted and raised by the Amendment of the noble Lord. The Motion of the hon. Member for Halifax refers to the future, and undertakes to recommend the House to say, that reduction can be made without reference to any facts with which we are acquainted. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud, on the other hand, undertakes to say, that everything which has been done in the past is perfectly un-officer to assure the House, that very conexceptionable. I an inclined neither to answer for the future nor to respond for the past. We have already completed the word of the Estimates, and must abide by what we have done. My Amendment, therefore, takes a middle course, and is, like that of the noble Lord, equivalent, or very nearly so, to the Previous Question. ["Agreed, agreed!"] The only question remaining is, as to the mode in which the Amendment of the noble Lord has been met. I entirely concur in the view which the noble Lord has taken of the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge. That Amendment raises no substantial, but only a verbal question, and could only be designed to effect a party triumph. I do full justice to the perfect sincerity of my right hon. Friend, and I am satisfied that his amiable disposition regarded the matter in the light in which he has tonight presented it; but, at the same time, I am convinced that the only meaning which can be attributed to the latter part of the Amendment is to spell the word l-e-e-k -that the noble Lord should swallow any leek that might be offered to him from this side of the House. I think that the noble Lord is justified in regarding this as a mere trial of party strength; and since, as an independent Member, I am not prepared to support such a proceeding, I shall withdraw my Amendment.

SIR FREDERIC SMITH: Having been appealed to by the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment which I have on the paper, I am most happy to accede to his request. At the same time, I beg to assure the House, that I was not aware that my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge was about to move

MR. BRIGHT: If we are engaged in an irregular discussion, it is owing to the course taken by the noble Lord at the head of the Government; and if the House is in any difficulty with regard to the Motions before it, it is on account of the declaration which he has made. He says, as I understand him, that before the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Walpole) there was not much difference of opinion-that the difference was a question of substantives and adjectives. Well, the substantives and adjectives of my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) are easily understood. They are not extreme; they are not offensive. I will undertake to say they meet the views of a large majority of Gentlemen on this side of the House. But the noble Lord was not willing to accept them, although he says there was little difference of opinion. We are all in favour of doing what we can to promote retrenchment. Why, then, could he not accept the Resolution of my hon. Friend? He objects to it for some reason which I am not able to discover, unless it be, as I am told, that it is not palatable for Gentlemen on that bench to agree to anything which is proposed by Gentlemen on this bench. That, no doubt, is an orthodox reason, and may be a very good one, but it is not satisfac.

MR. ELLICE (Coventry): I thought the hon. Member for Birmingham would have concluded with a Motion. ["Order, order!"]

MR. SPEAKER: It would certainly be convenient as well as for the regularity of our proceedings that some Motion should be before the House.

MR. BRIGHT: I understood the hon. Member for Devizes to propose a Motion for the adjournment of the House.

MR. ELLICE (Coventry): I certainly should not have interposed any words of mine upon this subject were it not for the remarks which have fallen from my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, who has not given notice of any Amendment, but who concluded his speech with a Motion which enables me―

tory down here. The right hon. Gentleman | clearly and definitely expresses the eco(Mr. Walpole) has proposed a Resolution, nomical disposition of the House. I am which I wish very much my hon. Friend quite sure, that if the noble Lord asks the Member for Halifax had proposed, be- Gentlemen opposite to join him in rejectcause I think it rather better than his, and ing the Resolution of my hon. Friend the very much better than the Amendment of Member for Halifax, he has no reason the noble Lord. Now, there is a mode of whatever to ask, and I hope he has no getting out of the difficulty. The right reason to expect, that Gentlemen who sit hon. Gentleman the Member for the Uni- on those benches so treated-when he versity of Cambridge-we all know we says there is no difference of opinion— may take every statement of his with the should go with him into the lobby against most perfect confidence-says that he has what I call the definite but perfectly no intention of promoting a party contest, reasonable and judicious proposition of the and so much is he amazed at the conduct right hon. Gentleman opposite. of the noble Lord, that he positively for a moment draws back, and asks the House to allow him between this time and the time when the noble Lord's Amendment may become the Resolution before the House to consider what course he shall take. Well, we are bound to admit that the right hon. Gentleman has no object, in proposing his Resolution, dangerous or subversive of the existing Administration. If that be so-if we are all in favour of economy, and so much in favour of it that we do not object to any definite statement with regard to it-I should like to know why we should have any party contest at all? If the noble Lord does not like a proposition from these benches, why should not he take one from that (the Opposition) bench? I have seen him do it once this Session, and on one occa-["No."] I certainly do not wish to be sion when I thought the right hon. Gentleman opposite was wrong and the Government was right. The Government accepted his Resolution, and a great question for a time was settled. If the House is disposed for a debate, let us have a debate. But I ask the House-especially those sixty or seventy gentlemen who, a year ago, requested the noble Lord, in very civil and humble terms, to condescend in a little degree to diminish the expenditure of the country-Whether they now intend to set up the noble Lord as dictator absolute upon this subject? because he has told us in our hearing tonight that this is not a question to be discussed on its merits-that this is not a question whether the expenditure is too high, but whether the noble Lord himself or a noble Lord-I presume, in another place-is to be Prime Minister, and conduct the affairs of the country. Sir, I repudiate altogether any such issue as that. If we are in favour of reduction of expenditure, we have several propositions before us, and it is easy to take that which most

disorderly, but I understood that either he or the hon. Gentleman opposite had proposed a Motion. ["No, no."] Well, as a person who very seldom troubles the House, but has hitherto taken an independent part in its debates, I think a few words from me may set the House right with respect to the position in which we stand at present. As I understand, my noble Friend the Prime Minister gave no notice of his intention to make any Motion on this subject till certain Amendments had been placed on the Journals of the House by different hon. Members, one more especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman). I do not see what other course was open to my noble Friend if he did not intend the debate to go astray entirely, and to get into the hands of a dozen Members all with different views, save to state fairly and openly the manner in which Her Majesty's Ministers intend to meet this Motion. Although I do not like abstract propositions, I have not the least objection-in fact, I entirely concur with