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men nothing of the kind was required. | happiness and comfort depended. Then, with respect to the organization of prepared to maintain that the landlords of the force, great stress had been laid upon Ireland, as a body, were worthy of their the necessity of its being placed under a possessions, and that in the performance military commander ; but, in his opinion, of their duties they would bear comparihowever desirable it might have been to son with their peers in any other portion place the force under a military com- of the Queen's dominions ; but if they mander during the time of its organiza- were to investigate the truth, they would tion, he did not see the necessity of it at find that there was a peculiarity in the present. He said nothing whatever against condition of the people which did occathe military officers at present commanding sionally affect the relationship of their that force. On the contrary, he wished to dependency on each other for their mutual pay them the highest possible compliment support. The tenants of the murdered for the admirable way in which they per- gentlemen were actually in gaol for the formed their duties. Still, he could not offences ; and when they saw the terms shut his eyes to the fact that it was a in which the threatening notices sort of compensation for promotion in crouched, if he said that the great matheir own service, while at the same time jority of those crimes did arise from ques. it was detrimental to the efficiency of the tions concerning the land, he was only force itself, because it deprived the con- enunciating the truth, which neither his stables themselves, who had important noble and riglit hon. Friends, nor an ignoduties to perform, of all the chances of rant and prejudiced scribbler could deny. promotion which existed in ordinary police The subject deserved the highest considerestablishments. The plan adopted in Ire-ation on the part of the Government, and land had been to assimilate the police force that consideration might be the means of as much as possible to the military service, bringing about a far more wholesome state and they even went so far as to keep a re- of affairs than then existed. He did not serve in Dublin at great expense. What wish the police to be disguised or used as necessity, he would ask, was there in times spies, because that system would be of railways to keep a reserve in Dublin, fraught with evil repugnant to the feelings when men might be brought from all parts of everybody, and wholly unworthy of the if any district of the country were in a Government; but he thought the less of a disturbed condition? He would now pass military character they possessed, the more to the state of the country, which was they were separated from the centralizing rather a ticklish subject ; and he hoped on system in Dublin, and the more they were that occasion he should neither be misre- placed under the control of the local ma. presented nor misunderstood, and that the gistracy, the greater respect they wonld right lion. Baronet would not think it ne- receive from the people, and the more effi. cessary to pass upon him the undeserved cient they would become as police constarebuke he had inflicted the other evening. bulary. They all knew that where a sysHe was sorry to say that noble Lords and tem of terror was established in the counright hon. Gentlemen on the Conservative try, the farmers of Ireland were as much gide of the House had joined in that re- under the feeling of intimidation as the buke, while their precious ally, the Dublin landlords themselves. He did not bring Evening Mail, utterly regardless of the the subject forward from any hostility services which he had rendered to the towards the police. So far from having party of which it professed to be the any such feeling towards them, he believed organ, in an article replete with audacious that they generally discharged their duties mendacity and virulent scurrility, held him as efficiently as their position allowed them. up to the country as parleying with assas- He simply complained of the duties that sins, and making the coffins of his friends were imposed on them. He wished to the platform on which he sought a misera- put an end to their military organization, ble and despicable popularity. As a land- and to their military style of arms. The lord himself, he was not likely to advocate judges of assize had already expressed any diminution of landlords' rights ; hei heir opinions upon the subject. He felt had never, like some of his right hon. he had now done his duty, in submitting Friends, concurred in the utopian scheme the question to the House, and he hoped of fixity of tenure ; nor should he be ad- that he had said enough to induce the vancing the interests of the tenants by set- right lion. Baronet the Chief Secretary for tivg against them that class on which their Ireland to take the matter into his most

He was


Colonel Dickson

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serious consideration, with a view to reme. those streams, the navigation was impeded. dying the evils which were so generally It was possible that might be so ; but he complained of. The hon. and gallant Mem- apprehended it was the duty of the Naviber concluded by proposing his Motion. gation Company to remove those obstruc.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY said, that tions. In any case, however, it was no the people of Ireland were much indebted reason why the Mersey and Irwell navigato the hon. and gallant Member who had tion should be placed in a different situation brought forward the subject.

from other navigations. Those streams Notice taken, that 40 Members were not flowed through a large manufacturing dispresent; House counted ; and 40 Mem- trict, and he could not understand why the bers not being present,

millowners and other occupiers of their

banks should be subject to penalties which
House adjourned at a quarter before Eight
o'clock, till Monday next.

were not imposed upon persons conuected
with other rivers. Why was the common
law of the land to be altered for the bene.
fit of one particular company? If it re-

quired alteration, it should be done for the HOUSE OF LORDS,

benefit of all navigable rivers. A curious

circumstance connected with the Bill Monday, June 2, 1862.

was, that the only part of it in which he MERSEY, IRWELL, &c. PROTECTION

found the names of the promoters was a BILI-PETITION AGAINST.

clause which exempted them from the

operation of the measure. The petition, (PUBLIC AND PRIVATE BILLS

which was signed by Mr. Rideout, Mr. S. PRACTICE.)

Blair, and, as he had already said, by Order of the Day for the House to be about 100 individuals, prayed that the put into a Committee on the Mersey, Bill should not be passed into law. Under Irwell, &c. Protection Bill, read.

its provisions, any man throwing rubbishi Then it was moved, That the House do into the streams named, over a distance now resolve itself into a Committee. of twenty-five miles, could be taken before

LORD KINGSDOWN said, he had to a magistrate and fined £5 for the first present a petition with respect to this offence, £10 for the second, and £20 for Bill. By a recent Standing Order it was every subsequent offenco ; and the worst provided that when a Private Bill, which part of it was that half the penalty went passed through a Select Committee, ap- to the common informer. Now, the majopeared to partake of a public nature, it rity of the occupiers had, probably by preshould afterwards be referred to a Com- scription, or in some other way, the right mittee of the Whole House. The present to throw rubbish into the rivers, and, under Bill was the first case which had come the circumstances, he did not think that before their Lordships under that provi- the Bill, which so seriously interfered with sion. Ils object was to inflict severe that right, was entitled to the favourable peualties on any person who should throw consideration of the House. refuse into the streams to which it re- LORD REDESDALE said, that when lated, and it had this peculiarity—that the Bill came before him he had considerhe could not make out whether it was a able doubts whether it should be proceeded Public or a Private Bill. The petition with as a Private Bill ; but it was then a which he had to present against the Bill much larger measure than as it now apwas signed by about 100 persons, owners, peared. Being a Bill of a novel character, lessees, manufacturers, and proprietors of he watched it with great jealousy ; but it works on the streams of the rivers Mersey was a strict rule of the House that no Bill and Irwell and their tributaries. In all which only affected a particular locality cases where a Private Bill affected private should be treated as a Public Bill. It was interests, the Standing Orders required his duty to see whether the evil complained that notice should be given to the parties of demanded legislative interference, and whose rights were prejudiced. This Bill, whether it was a general one or only conthe powers of which extended over an area fined to a particular locality. From the of 400 square miles, was promoted by the evidence brought before him it appeared Mersey and Irwell Navigation Company; that the evil was a very great one, and and they rested their case on the fact, that that large deposits, which were very detriin consequence of the rubbish thrown into mental to the navigation, lad accumulated VOL, CLXVII. (THIRD SERIES.]


in different parts of the streams, in conse- , Bill. No doubt the powers sought for were quence of the practice of throwing rubbish very large, and he beliered that every into them. The whole district was covered Member of the Committee expressed an with mills, a large number of which origi- opinion that it would be right that the nally used water power ; but in many there noble Lord the Chairman of Committees was now steam power also, and it was a should bring the Bill under the notice of common practice to throw the ashes into the House. But he was the more satisfied the stream. This was not only objection- with the course which the Committee on able as regarded navigation, but it inju. the Bill had pursued, from the circumriously affected the drainage of some of stance that the counsel for the opponents the towns. The promoters of the Bill said, had called no evidence. He had, however, that notwithstanding all the dredging the cited two cases with regard to user. To evil was increasing, and that some restric- these cases the counsel for the Bill replied, tion ought to be imposed in order to pre- and commented on them ; for no evidence vent a worse nuisance ensuing. With having been called against it, he had no regard to notice, he thought that ample right to a general reply; and, in bis (the notice had been given by the public adver- Earl of Belmore's) opinion, it was shown tisements, and, besides, the different parties that one of these cases had nothing whatinterested appeared before the Committee, ever to do with the question, and that the by whom the whole subject was fully inves- other had rather told against it. tigated--in point of fact, the Bill was very LORD CHELMSFORD said, that the severely fought in Committee. The Bill objection to this Bill was raised by had been considerably amended, so as to those who thought their interests would remove some of the objections which were be affected by it. He contended they first entertained to it'; and he was dis had sufficient notice to appear before the posed to think that it ought to be allowed Committee by counsel, and might have to proceed.

produced evidence and cross-examined witLORD OVERSTONE said, that it was of nesses : but they had not thought proextreme importance that these Private per to do either. It was clearly shown Bills, which really affected great public to the Committee this practice of throwinterests, as well as vested rights, should ing rubbish into the stream had been be closely watched in their passage through carried on for some time and to a consiParliament; and that the most minute derable extent, and even that the manuexaminations should be made of the details, facturers had produced machinery at their whether the measure happened to be op- different works to facilitate the convey. posed or not. He thought this Bill affect- ance of material into the stream. His ed numerous private interests very closely, noble and learned Friend (Lord Kingsand should not be passed without careful down) had unintentionally stated that the consideration.

provisions of the Bill would enable any The EARL OF BELMORE said, that he common informer to make a property out thought it better, as a Member of the Se of the infringements of the law which lect Committee which had sat on this Bill, would be produced by the acts done after to state to the House some of the facts the passing of the Bill. That could hardly connected with it. It had been proved in have been a correct representation, beevidence, that in 1849, when the inconve- cause the only persons who could lay nience caused by the deposits in the bed informations were the corporation, the of the navigation first began to be felt, Mersey, Weaver, and Irwell Company borings had been made in the deposit. themselves, or the owners and occupiers These were repeated in 1856 and again in of lands adjoining one of those streams. 1862 ; and it was found that the rise in He apprehended the present Bill was one the bed of the river--not in all places, for which their Lordships should entertain, in some it was actually now deeper than it because it had already received the conwas in 1849—but on the average, was sideration of a Select Committee, who about twenty-two inches, and that it was had unanimously expressed their opinion much more rapid in the latter part of the in its favour. time than in the former ; so that if the THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said, present state of things continued, in five the object of the Bill might be a very years there would be no navigation at all. right and proper one, but he was very Under these circumstances the Committee much struck with what had been said by considered themselves bound to pass the the noble Baron who presented the petition.

Lord Redesdale

It seemed that the Bill was originally in- had never had an opportunity of considertroduced as a Private Bill, and was treated ing its principle on the second reading, as such, and that in consequence no notice from the fact that it had been brought had been given to any parties whose in. forward as a private measure. Ile would terests were likely to be affected ; but it suggest that any further proceeding in was now proposed to be treated as a Pub- the matter should be deferred for a short lic Bill. He thought they ought to pause time, in order that they might be enabled and hesitate before they went on with the to inform themselves more accurately in measure, and therefore he should move respect of its merits or demerits. that the Bill be committed that day three EARL GREY said this, Bill differed in three months.

no respect from the ordinary Bills for the Amendment mored, to leave out “nov," protection of harbours, except that it apand insert “ this day three months.”

plied to a larger district of country. Ship

owners were not allowed to throw ballast LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY into the Tyne ; and the only hardship to thought, that although the present Bill had the millowners in this case was that they been introdnced and treated as a Private would be deprived of a cheap and easy one, it was to all intents and purposes a mode of getting rid of their rubbish at the Public Bill, since every manufacturer and expense of the public. The Bill had been every landowner and occupier over the dis before a Select Committee, counsel had tricts affected by the measure was liable been heard on both sides, and an unani. to the penalties inflicted by it. He be- mous conclusion having been come to by lieved this was the first time that powers the Committee in favour of the Bill, he of such a kind had been sought to be saw no reason for refusing to consider it in obtained by means of a Private Bill, Committee of the Whole House. and he considered their Lordships ought LORD CRANWORTH said, he would to have an opportunity of discussing propose that the further consideration of those powers before the Bill was finally the Bill be postponed for a fortnight. disposed of.

THE EARL OF DESART concurred with THE EARL OF DERBY said, there was the noble Earl (Earl Grey) that they no similarity between the case of the Com- should so far adopt tho recommendations mittee for which he had formerly moved, of the Committee as to proceed to the conand the question no:v before their Lord- sideration of the clauses of the Bill. ships, because in the former instance he LORD PORTMAN was of opinion, that had received applications from almost if their Lordships refused to go into Comevery part of England, and the Motion mittee on the Bill, they would make it a had a general application ; whereas in the very difficult matter for Committees in present case a particular locality was re- future to recommend measures

to the ferred to. The evil, however, was one of consideration of the House. He would growing magnitude. The manufactories strongly urge upon their Lordships to go on the banks of those rivers had year after into Committee, when he intended to year seriously affected the navigation and propose amendments upon some of the drainage, and the matter was now becom- clauses. ing so serious, that unless some legisla- LORD TAUNTON said, that harbour tive interference took place shortly, it was Bills did not go to Select Committees impossible to calculate the amount of in- till all the questions raised by them jury which would result. The manufac- had been considered by the Admiralty turers themselves admitted that some or the Board of Trade ; and the Commitsteps should by taken, and the members tee were guided very much in their deof the Committee were unanimous upon cision by the opinion of an inpartial and the subject. The Bill had already gone responsible Government officer. He saw through the Select Committee as a Pri no way in which questions of this nature Fate Bill, and it was now proposed to com- could be satisfactorily determined upon mit it to the investigation of a Commit- by the House; and he thought it would tee of the Whole House ; but the propo- be well if the practice in the case of harsition of the noble Earl would reject the bour Bills was followed in regard to such Bill altogether.

Bills as the one now before their LordLORD CRANWORTH said, that al- ships. He did not think they would be though their Lordships were then asked in a bit better position to decide upon to go into Committeo on the Bill, they the question a fortnight hence thad they


were now, and therefore there was no ad- | He quite agreed with the noble and learned vantage in postponing the Committee. Lord, that the question involved was a fit

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he one for general legislation. regarded this as a very objectionable mea- LORD BROUGHAM thought there were

A very great public question was already in existence powers to prevent the brought forward in the guise of a Private gradual filling-up of navigable rivers. If Bill, for the protection of the rights of a he were the owner of a stream, and chose private company. It was a very serious to deepen it, throwing the rubbish he dug question, whether there ought not to be out into the river, he would be indictable some alteration in the law which should for a nuisance ; and the same remedy was prevent the obstruction of tributary streams open againet a person who filled the river to navigable rivers. He was not aware in by any other means. of any enactment at present by which the LORD CAMPERDOWN said, he should public interest in a navigable river could be satisfied with the postponement of the be protected from having its supplies cut consideration of the Bill in Committee, and off by the acts of proprietors on the banks would withdraw his Amendment. of its tributary streams. But, althoughı LORD REDESDALE said, no doubt that great evil was quoted as a reason for the remedy referred to by the noble and the introduction of this Bill, its provisions learned Lord (Lord Broughan), of indicting left the general question entirely untouched, a person who filled the river in for a nuiand would amount to nothing more than sancc, existed, but it could not be carried an invasion of private property. There out, as it was in possible to find out whose were a vast number of tributary streams rubbish filled the river in. Ile should flowing into these navigable rivers, the suggest that the Bill be postponed till banks of the streams being the pro- that day fortnight, and that in the mean perty of private individuals ; and the only time the evidence taken before the Select obligation upon the owners of the property Committee be printed. by law was that they should not prevent

Amendment and original Motion (by the flow of water going down to other pro- leave of the House) withdrawn ; and prietors of land below them. The law had never gone to the extent of holding instant.

Committee put off to Monday the 16th that a navigable river fed by the stream should be protected in any manner by the intervention of the Attorney-General.

FLOATING BREAKWATERS. This Bill proposed not to legislate in LORD RAVENSWORTH asked tho such a manner as to secure the flow of First Lord of the Admiralty whether Her water down to the navigable river, but to Majesty's Government had taken any prevent the proprietors from dealing at all steps, or intended to take any steps for with the banks of the river; and throwing carrying into effect the recomiendation anything-even a stone-into the river of the Select Committee of their Lordwas made a penal offence. He thought it ships' House in 1860 upon floating breakmight be expedient to give power to a waters, &c., which was reported in the court of justice to restrain by injunction following terms :any act that might impede the flow of

“ The Committee are not prepared to recomwater so as to interfere with the naviga- mend that tho Government should undertake the tion ; but their Lordships slould be care- task of constructing breakwaters on these princiful not to declare that an offence, which, ples; but looking to the vast cost of harbours might not in any degree contribute to the they are of opinion that a moderate sum may be

constructed upon the systems hitherto in use, evil which they wished to remove. He advantageously expended by the Government in thought legislation upon the subject neces- testing any plans which may offer a probability of sary; but be considered that the evil important results in great future saving of money should be met by a general comprehensive various Localities. To carry this object into effect

and in giving protection to life and property in measure, instead of by a Bill dealing with the Committee recommend that a sum not exa particular interest, and which would ceeding £10,000 be placed at the disposal of the prove a petty, trifling, and vexatious pro. Admiralty." cedure, without accomplishing the object To show the importance of the subject, he in view.

might observe that the Committee stated THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE in their Report that the annual loss of thought this measure a very one-sided property off our coasts arising from casual. one, and that it ought not to be agreed to. ties—that was shipwreck-had been, on

Lord Taunton

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