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where it had existed the longest, the corrup-| Naples, and the town and neighbourhood tion had gone deepest, and was the most had, in fact, been left in the hands of difficult to eradicate. It was proved by the National Guard alone. All over the this very delay in bringing persons to trial. country, even in the most disturbed disThe magistrates, notoriously open to cor- tricts, these National Guards were enrupt influences, could not be trusted to rolled, and represented, with very few exadminister justice, and where they had to ceptions, the respectable and the educated employ old and corrupt agents, injustice classes. What could be better evidence of must in some cases occur. It must be to the feeling of the people of Italy and of the interest of every Government to acce- their liking for the existing Government? lerate the process of improvement as much Having been in the country for several as possible, and encourage Italy to make months past, and having met with every the most rapid strides in every species of class of society, all said merchants, material and moral development. He workmen, politicians, professors, down to wished their Lordships could have seen, as the very fishermen and steamboat crewhe had seen, the different spirit which now that to return to the Bourbons was an impervaded that country in comparison with possibility-was too horrible to be thought its state under its former rulers. In con- of; while a French prince or a republic sequence of the extension of railway and found not much greater favour. Although steamboat communication, a vast improve- there were difficulties in the establishment ment had taken place, and North and South of a Government like that of Italy, alItaly might be considered as portions of though there might be defects of adminisone great and united nation. There were tration, and discontent at those defects, no longer Neapolitans, Tuscans, Piedmon- this was no more than might be expected. tese, but members of one united country- He believed that throughout Italy the disa country fit to hold up its head in the con- position to return to the Bourbons was gress of nations, and regarded there as much less than the feeling in favour of the among the most powerful, and the most re- Stuarts which existed in this country after spected. He trusted, therefore, that the the Revolution; and if his noble Friend advice so wisely offered by his noble Friend had been in the country, as he had, and (the Earl of Ellenborough) would be taken, had seen the present feeling of the people, and that henceforward Italy, having been he would have returned a devoted friend of recognised by France, Russia, and Prussia, the existing Government, instead of singwould be treated as a great and indepen- ing now the last dying song of the Bourdent nation. As to the South of Italy, a bons. false impression had been created in the public mind as to the extent of brigandage, and it had been urged that its existence was a proof of the general dissatisfaction of the people. But what were the facts? The brigands, throughout the Neapolitan States did not exceed a thousand in number, and out of the fifteen different provinces only five were infested by them. And what sort of persons composed these brigand bands? Why, in many cases liberated galley-slaves; and he believed it was a fact that the noble Marquess's friends, the Bourbons, had not found a single officer of the old Bourbon army to command these men. No doubt there were some foreign officers among them-Belgians, Spaniards, some French, and some Irish; but when people were led away with the notion that because this brigandage existed the people of the Neapolitan States were dissatisfied with the change of Government, let them remember that there had been times when not more than 1,000 troops were left in

THE MARQUESS OF NORMANBY in reply said, that he had at first been much puzzled to know from what sources his noble Friend had collected his information; but he was convinced now that his noble Friend was very little acquainted with what was going on in Italy. Only one thousand brigands in the kingdom of Naples! The British Consul had last year reported that there was only five hundred; and after twelve months' experience had he tried to persuade his noble Friend that there were now only one thousand? Had his noble Friend ever inquired how many times that number had been shot without trial? Why, was his noble Friend aware that 60,000 Piedmontese soldiers had been sent into the various provinces to suppress the state of brigandage, and that these had been so reduced by contests with the brigands, sickness, and other causes, that only 25,000 now remained? And then, as to the National Guard, was his noble Friend aware that within the last week such had been the march of discontent in that kingdom

within the prisons of Sicily had not been distinctly disproved, and deserved the ridicule attached to the elaborate charge. A woodcut of this cap had headed an article in a Ministerial paper, calling upon the electors on the day of the dissolution in 1857 to support a Government which alone prevented the use of such instruments of torture. It turned out that that engraving was a facsimile of one which had appeared in a report on English prison discipline made by French commissioners sent over by Louis Philippe. That cap of silence was invented not at Palermo, but at Manchester; and not for the purpose of suppressing Italian patriots, but for putting a check on the eloquence of such of the Lancashire witches as had the misfortune to be in prison.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY said, he did not know, nor did he believe, that the Piedmontese army in Southern Italy had suffered to the extent described by the noble Marquess in their contests with the brigands. Motion agreed to.

that General La Marmora upon one occa-
sion endeavoured to collect the National
Guard, and out of 20,000 only 1,200
appeared; whereupon, counselled by this
defeat, he did not on the next day repeat
the attempt? Was he aware of the great
financial disorder which existed, and of
the great increase of taxation? His noble
Friend had spoken a great deal about his
personal observation of the state of Italy.
It was true that his noble Friend had been
in Italy, and he had not; but there were
other ways of obtaining accurate notions
of what was going on-namely, by com-
municating with well-informed people. It
might be as well to read other newspapers
besides the Government gazettes. It did
not follow, because a person had been in
Italy, and had looked out of his carriage
window as he passed through the country,
that he should know what was transpiring.
With regard to the advice that Italy should
be left to itself as well as other countries,
he cordially agreed in it; but had that
been the policy of the English Government
during the last twelve years? Why, the
English Government had been in the habit
of reading sermons to the King of Naples,
and of addressing him in despatches so
threatening that everybody said, "If you
wish to do anything, this is not the way to
do it." He only wished that the advice
in question had been followed by the Eng-Order).
lish Government during the last twelve
years. The noble Earl the Foreign Secre-
tary had attributed the present condition
of Italy to the consequences of the mis-
government of the last dynasty, and he
said that some of the functionaries of the

late Bourbon Government had continued
in office. That statement, however, had
been contradicted by his noble Friend who
last addressed their Lordships, and who
had said that it was impossible any one of
the functionaries of the old Government
should have been so left to retain office
under the new order of things. But, if
not one of the old functionaries had been
left, how could the present state of things
be traced to the old Government? If his
noble Friend had really been in Italy for
five months, and had read any other papers
than those under the special patronage of
the Piedmontese Government, how was it
that he had heard no charges of malad
ministration and corruption made against
the great functionaries? He was, indeed,
surprised to hear the Secretary of State
refer again to the old story of the
cap of
silence, as if its application at any time
The Marquess of Normanby




[BILL NO. 158.] COMMITTEE. House in Committee (according to

Clause 1 (Constables may apprehend without Warrant in certain Cases).

LORD POLWARTII moved to strike out the word "England" and to insert tending the operation of the Act to Scotthe words "Great Britain" thereby ex


Amendment. It was most desirable to
THE EARL OF DERBY opposed the
had in view, namely, the suppression of
restrict the Bill to the simple object it
gangs of armed night poachers. It might
endanger the Bill in the other House if it
the stringency of the Game Laws.
were made into a measure for increasing

THE EARL OF CLANCARTY moved the words "and Ireland," so that the Act after the words "Great Britain," to add should extend to the whole United Kingdom.

After short discussion, the Question being put to omit "England" and insert "Great Britain and Ireland,” Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.


THE EARL OF STRADBROKE then On Question, Whether the said Clause moved to add a clause inflicting a penalty be there inserted? Resolved in the Negaon any person who should buy eggs of game from any person other than the owner of the soil on which the eggs are laid or a person duly licensed to sell game.

On Question, Resolved in the Negative. The Bill then passed through the Committee, with numerous Amendments.

Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow [Bill No. 164].



Bill read 3 (according to Order).

THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE said, that the Bill as it stood would give the Established Church of Scotland a power of summoning witnesses which it had never before possessed; and he believed that such a measure would create a great deal of ill-feeling in that country. He therefore moved to insert after Clause 4, a clause that no person should be compelled to give evidence or produce any documents before the Courts of the Established Church of Scotland, unless he be in communion with

that Church.

LORD BELHAVEN said, he could not accede to the proviso, as it was most in quisitorial.

THE MARQUESS OF BREADALBANE said, he was opposed both to the proviso and the Bill. A more impolitic measure had never been introduced. One clause

provided, that if a libel were brought against a clergyman, he was to be deposed

until his case was heard. This was a most unjust provision. Ile trusted the Bill would be thrown out in the other House.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL supported the Bill, the necessity for which he said was demanded by the fact, that if the minister of a Scotch parish was guilty of minconduct which justified his suspension, he could not, owing to the long and tedious process which had to be gone through, be judicially silenced for perhaps two years. The Bill, however, declared that the Church Court had the power to prevent such a man discharging his functions as a clergyman pending the result of the legal inquiry.

Bill passed, and sent to the Commons. House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.

Monday, July 7, 1862.

MINUTES.]-PUBLIC BILLS.-10 Highland_Roads and Bridges; Savings Banks (Ireland); Divorce Court; Indemnity.

2° Turnpike Acts Continuance; Turnpike Trusts Arrangements; Duchy of Cornwall Lands (Completion of Arrangements).

3 Poor Relief (Ireland) (No. 2).



MR. KINNAIRD said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, When a Report may be expected from Mr. Seymour Tremenheere, who was appointed in July, 1861, a Commissioner to inquire into the complaints of the Journeymen Bakers of London; and whether it will be or is intended to extend the inquiry as promised, if required, to Scotland and Ireland?

SIR GEORGE GREY said, that Mr. Tremenheere's Report had been received by the Government on Friday last, and would be in the printers' hands immediately. The Government proposed to extend the inquiry to other places if it should be necessary; but the facts were so similar that it was probable that those interested in the matter, upon receiving the Report, would not think further inquiry necessary.


HINDOO TEMPLES.-QUESTION. MR. KINNAIRD said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, What has been done by the Government of India, in pursuance of Lord Stanley's Despatch of the 24th day of February, 1859, on the subject of rescinding certain Laws now in force in India which connect the Government of India with the special care of Lands belonging to Mohammedan Mosques and Hindoo Temples?


SIR CHARLES WOOD said, that no al- it would be included in the Returns in teration had actually been made in the Laws referred to by the hon. Gentleman, though two Bills had been introduced into CHAPLAINCY OF THE YOUGHAL UNION. the Governor General's Council on the subject, one of which was under consideration.



MR. H. A. HERBERT said, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, When it is the intention of the Government to proceed with the works on the Steam Packet Pier at Holyhead, for which money has been voted by Parliament this Session?

LORD CLARENCE PAGET said, it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to proceed at once with the works at Holyhead, that is to say, with the strengthening of the pier and putting the roof upon it. The Government thought it due to the passengers, both to and from Ireland, that the work should be at once taken in hand without waiting for the conclusion of the negotiations between the London and North-Western and the Dublin Steam Packet Companies. He hoped, when the pier was completed, that the packets would keep their time.

MR. BUTT said, he rose to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, When the Returns relative to the Chaplaincy of the Youghal Union, ordered by this House on the 6th day of June, renewing a similar order of last Session, will be laid upon the table of the House?

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, the Return was a very voluminous one; but the Poor Law Commission stated that it was in course of preparation, and would be ready to be laid on the table in about a fortnight.


MR. MILNER GIBSON said, the list of articles enumerated in the monthly Returns was revised every year, and, should the quantity of foreign paper imported continue to be as large as at present, it would be specified in the Returns. For the last few months the importation of foreign paper had been very fluctuating, being in one month only 2,000 cwt., and in another 38,000 cwt. It was difficult at present to decide whether it was of sufficient importance to take its place among the principal articles imported. But if the importation continued at its present rate, Mr. Kinnaird

LAND TENURE-INDIA.-QUESTION. MR. SMOLLETT said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, Whether any Resolution has recently been taken to introduce a permanent settlement of Land in India; and, if so, whether he will be prepared to lay upon the table of the House Copy of the Instructions forwarded to the Governor General for that purpose; and, if he is prepared to fix a day for introducing his annual Statement on Indian Finance?

SIR CHARLES WOOD: Sir, when the hon. Gentleman brought to my notice some time ago the question of the permanent settlement of Land in India, I was not able to give an answer on the subject, inasmuch as it was under the consideration of the Indian Council. I am now happy to state that they have come to the con

FOREIGN PAPER.-QUESTION. MR. ASPINALL TURNER said, he would beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, Whether (seeing by the Return recently made that the quantity of Foreign Paper imported is far more important than the quantity of Rags im-clusion to which the hon. Gentleman came ported, or the quantity of Paper exported, long before-that it would be for the both of which appear in the Returns of benefit of India that the system of permaTrade and Navigation) he will order that nent settlement of Land should be graduin future the quantity of Foreign Paper ally introduced. I shall be happy to lay imported shall appear in the usual monthly on the table the papers on the subject. With reference to the second question, I hope to be able to make the Indian financial statement on Monday next.

IRISH BUSINESS.-OBSERVATIONS. MR. SCULLY said, that as he saw the right hon. Baronet the Chief Secretary for Ireland in his place, he wished to ask him a question in reference to the Irish business before Parliament, and more cspecially with respect to the Bills which appeared on the paper for that evening. With a view to put himself in order, he would conclude by moving the adjourn

ment of the House. The matter was a very important one, not only as regarded the convenience of the Irish Members, but also as regarded the conduct of the Irish business. He hoped that the English Members, who were anxious to get to the Thames Embankment Bill, would allow him a few moments for a matter of great interest to Ireland. He wanted to know distinctly and unequivocally from the right hon. Baronet what he intended to do with the four important Irish Bills which appeared upon the paper for that night, and which he had observed upon many papers a fact which had brought down the Irish Members night after night to their extreme inconvenience and positive physical injury. The Bills he alluded to were the Markets and Fairs Bill, the Weights and Measures (Ireland) Bill, the Poor Relief (Ireland) (No. 2) Bill, and the County Surveyors Bill. The Markets and Fairs Bill had been constantly set down. It was originally brought on upon the 1st of May, contrary to what he conceived to have been the understanding, at a time when several Irish Members were absent, and on the day when the Great Exhibition was opened. Since then it had appeared, re-appeared, and disappeared, only to appear again. He did not complain of its being put down for that night; but what he wanted to know was, would it be brought on, or was it intended that there should be any result from it being put down? It might be great sport to the right hon. Baronet, who lived hard by, who could postpone it, and who knew at any hour of the evening whether he intended to bring it on, but who never communicated, directly or indirectly, anything that could be relied on to any one on that side of the House. It was out of courtesy to the right hon. Baronet that he took the course he was now about to adopt, and which he admitted was an unusual one. The Irish Mem-jected to were ordered to be retained, ers had remained in attendance in the by 125 to 76, in a very full House for a House so long, night and day, that some morning sitting. That was a very emof them had succumbed to it, and had re- phatic expression of opinion; but, notturned to Ireland. He (Mr. Scully) had withstanding the decision so arrived at, it given notice of his intention to have the was on Friday night, or Saturday morning Markets and Fairs Bill re-committed, and last, suddenly, and by surprise-although, it was important to know what were the perhaps, not to the surprise of the right bona fide intentions of the right hon. Ba- hon. Baronet-reversed, after a rambling ronet with respect to that Bill. He had discussion of a few minutes, by a majority told them frequently during the last week of six. This was a matter which conthat it was his wish to proceed with it, cerned not merely Ireland - which was and he had placed on the paper certain more immediately affected by the decision Amendments which he wished to intro--but also the whole conduct of business

duce into it. The Weights and Measures Bill was an extraordinary and mischievous attempt at legislation. It appeared by the paper that there were notices to take certain clauses out of the Markets and Fairs Bill, and insert them in the Weights and Measures Bill. [Cries of "Order!" and "Chair!"] He appealed to hon. Gentlemen to allow him to proceed, and he would go at once to what occurred on Friday night, or, more properly, at an early hour on Saturday morning. He was, of course, also limited in speaking of this subject by the rules of the House, and he would be the last person in the House to violate any of its rules or orders. This was the first time he had availed himself of the privileges given by those rules to make a statement of this description, and he would not do so but that the circumstances were extraordinary and unusual. ["Order!"] He was quite at liberty to refer to what occurred, although, as he was aware, he could not quote the precise statements made by the right hon. Baronet. The sitting of Friday was the very longest of the present Session. They had a day sitting, commencing at twelve o'clock, and by the records of the House it appeared that they sat until a quarter to three o'clock; in fact, they sat continuously twelve hours and three quarters. At half-past two o'clock in the morning attempts, and successful attempts, were made by the opposite side of the House to alter an important clause in the Poor Law Bill, which had been adopted after two or three months of discussion. That attempt was made in the absence of hon. Members who took a deep interest in the subject, and decisions were come too which could not be altered while the Bill remained in that House. At the sitting on the 29th of May, a very important question arose as to retaining the words "or otherwise." A long debate took place on that occasion, and the words ob

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