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had had nothing but a series of English rows that Session. The complaint was becoming chronic, and they were fast degenerating into a species of Rowdyism, which the Irish Members really did not approve. These acrimonious personal attacks of English Members upon each other were calculated to wound the sensitive minds of the Irish Members, who sat there as Parliamentary buffers to soften collisions. If, however, these encounters must continue, he did humbly trust that those who engaged in them would try to imitate the Hibernian example by infusing a little more humour and good temper into them. He also hoped, when the important business of the sister country was again under discussion there, the Irish Members would not be charged with wasting the time of the House.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; Main Question put and agreed to.

MR. AYRTON moved that the Chairman be ordered to report progress.

Clause agreed to; as were Clauses 2 to 5 inclusive.

House resumed.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.



Order for Committee read.
In answer to Mr. BENTINCK,

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, the Thames Embankment Bill would be fixed for today. If it was concluded to-day, the Fortifications Bill would be taken the first thing on Monday; otherwise it would be the second Order.

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE: Yes; but the House ought to have a more definite answer; and unless one was given, he should divide the House on the question that the Bill should be absolutely fixed for Monday.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 (The Lands Clauses Consolidation Acts incorporated with this Act).

MR. AYRTON said, he hoped they were not to go on with the Bill, which did not in the least conform with the statement made by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He trusted the noble Lord would abide by that statement, and assist the metropolitan members in securing that the public should have the full benefit of the improvement for which they were to be taxed. When they examined the clauses which the patriotic Chief Commissioner of Works had intro- INCLOSURE (No. 2) BILL-[BILL No. 174.] duced, they would see how much of the Thames Embankment was to be given to the public and how much to be frittered away in other directions. And when they came to the question of the Crown lessees, they would have to consider what was to be done, not merely with a footway of eighty feet wide, but with the rest of the valuable land to be reclaimed from the river at the public expense, and whether


Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."

it was to be allotted to the Crown lessees as garden ground, the worth of which was to be computed according to the number of cabbages it could produce.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, he hoped that the introductory clauses, which would give rise to no discussion, would be gone through that night.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: Let us do one thing at a time. We have got one Bill before us; let us finish that. If there is time on Monday for the hon. Gentleman to make a long speech, we will go on with the Bill; if not, I will agree to postpone

the Order.


there may be time also for the noble Lord to make a long speech in reply.

Committee deferred till Monday next.

Bill was similar to one which had already MR. PEACOCKE inquired whether the passed that House with considerable opposition; and whether its object was to enclose a second portion of Hainault Forest?

SIR GEORGE GREY replied that it was precisely similar to the Bill referred to, and its object was to give effect to certain provisional orders made by the Enclosure Commissioners. These orders

were not made without the fullest notice in the neighbourhood, and a report was laid on the table of the House before the Bill was introduced. In that case no pe

Clause 6 (Power to make Works accord-tition had been presented against the Bill. ing to deposited Plans). MR. COX said, that the Bill had only

Mr. Scully

been introduced within the last few days, and the inhabitants of the eastern part of the metropolis, who would be affected by the enclosure of Hainault Forest, knew nothing about the measure.

MR. PEACOCKE observed that notice was given to owners of property in the neighbourhood, but they were precisely the class of persons who would be benefited by the enclosure; and the persons who received no notice were the public at large. Nevertheless, a petition against the Bill was in course of preparation for the purpose of being presented to the House of Lords. For the sake of the poorer classes of the metropolis, who used Hainault Forest for the purpose of recreation, he objected to the proposed enclosure, and should therefore move, as an Amendment, that the Bill be recommitted.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the words "That the "to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "Order for the Third Reading of the said Bill be discharged,"

-instead thereof.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the


The House divided:-Ayes 72; Noes 76: Majority 4.

MR. CONOLLY said, he objected to the clause, as it did not carry out the views of the Committee.

Ordered, That the Order for the Third Reading of the said Bill be discharged. Bill re-committed for To-morrow.


Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.

Clause agreed to.

House resumed.

SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he wished to move the insertion of a clause in lieu of one which he had withdrawn, providing that every person making application for relief after the passing of the Act should be deemed to have been resident in the electoral division in which, during the period of five years immediately before the application he had been longest usually resident, certain qualifications being laid down as to the electoral division in which the persons seeking relief should, under certain circumstances, be chargeable. The clause was, he might add, the same as had been in operation in Ireland for some time.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.



Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.

Clause (Parties aggrieved by Warrant of Removal may appeal) brought up, and read 1°.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided: - Ayes 31; Noes 48 Majority 17.

Another Clause (Substitution of Three for Five Years' Time specified in 8 & 9 Vict., c. 83, s. 76) brought up, and read 1o.

Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."

Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and Noes 46: Majority 26. agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.


Whereupon Motion made, and Question, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.

Original Question put.

The Committee divided:- Ayes 20;

House adjourned at half after Two o'clock.

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believe that those two men were the instruments of others, and ordered that those other persons should be called to the bar for examination on the subject. He thought the course which would be wiser and in accordance with precedents would be to refer the whole matter to a Select Committee. He therefore moved that a Select Committee should be appointed to investigate the subject, and that Isaacs and Preston, together with Mr. R. S. Lingwood, solicitor, at Cheltenham, C. W. Maisey, clerk to Lingwood, and Mr. Boodle, solicitor, the employer of Isaacs, should be ordered to attend before that Committee from time to time.

Motion agreed to.


L. Steward.

E. Stradbroke.
L. Portman.

L. Overstone.
L. Churston.


THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE, in moving an Address for Copies of Correspondence relating to the establishment of a means of a communication between Canada and British Columbia, said, that a large part of the territory to the north. and the west of our Canadian possessions had been for the best part of two centuries in the hands of the Hudson's Bay Company, part of it under a charter of Charles II., and part of it under a licence to trade. Within these territories the company had the sole power of governing the country and trading with the Indian tribes. It was The Order for the Attendance of Wil- difficult to define the exact boundaries of liam Isaacs, Clerk to Mr. Boodle, Solicitor that part which was held under charter at Cheltenham, and John Preston, Town from that which was held under the licence, Crier at Cheltenham, and Robert Sole and in all probability the Secretary to the Lingwood, Solicitor at Cheltenham, and Colonies would not be able to give any Charles William Maisey, Clerk to the said definite information on the point, but it Robert Sole Lingwood, at the Bar of this was said that it included all the territory House, in reference to their Conduct with which drained into the Hudson's Bay. At regard to the Signatures to the Petition the time the charter was granted the counof Barbara Robinson and others of Chel- try included in the powers was almost totally tenham, presented on the 22nd of May unknown, and, as to all that large portion last, praying to be heard by Counsel which was held under the licence, remained against the East Gloucestershire Rail- so down to a very recent period. The liway Bill," discharged: Then a Select cence to trade expired in 1859, and a large Committee appointed to inquire into the portion of the territory which they had Circumstances attending the Conduct of held under it had since been erected into a the said William Isaacs, John Preston, colony under the name of British ColumRobert Sole Lingwood, and Charles Wil-bia. It was well known that that colony liam Maisey, and also of William Boodle, since its first establishment had received an Solicitor of Cheltenham, with regard to immense development from the discovery the Mode of obtaining Signatures to the of gold mines, exceeding in richness all said Petition of Barbara Robinson and that had been discovered in Australia or others of Cheltenham, presented on the California, and very large numbers of per22nd of May last: The Lords following sons were desirous of emigrating thither. were named of the Committee; the Com- So long as British Columbia was merely a mittee to meet on Monday next, at Eleven small colony, it was, perhaps, not worth o'Clock, and to appoint their own Chair- while to seek for any further means of communication than were afforded by the route over the Isthmus of Panama and the West India line of steamers; but since its immense development it was imperatively necessary that we should have an indeSo-pendent means of communication through our own territories, without having to rely other might possibly be hostile. Of course, on any other Power, which at some time or it would be futile to ask the Government to spend money in making roads or railways. What he would ask of them would



That William Isaacs, Clerk to Mr. Boodle, licitor at Cheltenham, and John Preston, Town Crier at Cheltenham, Robert Sole Lingwood, Soli

citor at Cheltenham, and Charles William Maisey;

Clerk to the said Robert Sole Lingwood, and William Boodle, Solicitor at Cheltenham, do attend the above Committee on Monday next, at Eleven o'clock, in reference to their Conduct with regard to the Mode of obtaining Signatures be to give such facilities for the introducothers of Cheltenham, presented on the 22nd of tion of settlers into the colony as would May last. lead to the country being opened up, and

to the said Petition of Barbara Robinson and

The Lord Chancellor


this in the course of time would lead to the construction of the means of communication. He thought it essential that we should be independent, both in peace and war, of any other Power with respect to our means of communication with this rising colony. He did not ask that a large Parliamentary grant should be given for the opening of this communication. All he asked the noble Duke to do was to carry out the recommendations of a Committee of the other House who sat on this subject. The noble Lord, who was very indistinctly heard, concluded by moving that an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for

approach by sea, all settlements in the
United States were upon the lines of
rivers, the wave of colonization continually
spreading along those lines. But no such
wave of population had approached the
Hudson's Bay territories, and as long as
there were large tracts of uncleared land
in Canada of equal fertility, but more
accessible than land within the Hudson's
Bay territory, settlers would prefer the
former to the latter. With respect to the
charter of the Company, it was not now
for the first time that that subject had
been mooted.
More than fifty years ago

a number of able men took exception to it,
and obtained legal opinions as to its valid-
ity, but those opinions did not lead to any
further steps being taken. The naviga-
tion of the rivers and bays in the terri-
tories was very difficult, and required
great experience, as was shown by the fact,
that while of the Company's vessels none
had been lost, no less than thirty chartered
The country
vessels had been wrecked.
was therefore not of a nature to invite
settlers in any numbers.

"1. Copies or Extracts from Correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the Governments of Canada and British Columbia, and the Hudson's Bay Company respecting

the Establishment of a Means of Communication between Canada and British Columbia."

"2. Copies or Extracts from Correspondence between the Secretary of State for the Colonies and the Hudson's Bay Company respecting the Renewal of the Licence to trade in the Indian Territory which expired in 1859."

"3. Copies or Extracts from any Correspond

ence between the Government and the Hudson's Bay Company respecting the withdrawal of the Red River, Satckachewan, and Swan River Ter

ritories from under the control of that Company, and their Erection into a Colony depending directly upon the Crown."

THE DUKE OF NEWCASTLE said, he did not understand the noble Earl who brought forward the Motion to make any observation hostile to the Hudson's Bay Company. He would remind the noble Earl who spoke last that the circumstances of the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company had greatly changed within the last fifty years. It was true, as the noble Earl had observed, that colonization generally spread itself along the course of the rivers like wave following wave; but if he had visited many parts of the United States in the far West, he would have found that that was not a universal rule, and that in places where fertile land was found settlers spread themselves irrespective of oceans or rivers. In fact, the wave of colonization had advanced very closely to the Red River Settlement itself. With respect to the Motion of the noble Earl, he was willing to produce the papers asked for, except those under the second head, which had been already laid upon the table in 1859. The noble Earl was anxious to know the position of the licence to trade in the district which since 1859 had passed under the direct authority of the Crown. Shortly after the change of Government. in that year, he (the Duke of Newcastle) brought in a Bill, the heads of which had

THE EARL OF SELKIRK wished to say a few words in defence of a body of men with whom he had the honour to be connected the Hudson's Bay Company. Whenever property belonging to a corporate body was taken for the use of the public, it was usual to give the money value of the property. He had no hesitation in declaring that the Hudson's Bay Company had no wish to stand in the way of any arrangement, if their just claims were properly considered. As in the case of the East India Company, the Hudson's Bay Company would require to have the dividends of their capital secured to the shareholders, and some compensation given to their agents, who had an interest in the business of the Company. If that were done, the Hudson's Bay Company would be quite prepared to give up their property. It had been imputed to the Company that it was opposed to immigration within its territories; but that was not the fact, for the Company had made exertions, and spent a considerable amount of money in attempts at colonization; but the nature

tion of the country rendered the attempts unsuccessful. Except where there was an

of the climate, and the geographical posi-been prepared by his predecessor, in anticipation of the Company refusing the offer made to them by the Government,


and which gave power to the British Go- | being the possible chance of any devernment, if they should think it neces-spatches sent vid Panama falling into sary, to appoint magistrates in that dis- hostile hands. In times of war, and trict. At the time, he stated that he was equally in times of peace, it would be not at all sure that it would be necessary necessary to have a communication by to appoint magistrates in that district for land, and that was the general feeling some years, as he anticipated that the in British Columbia, in Upper Canada, fears of the Hudson's Bay Company re- and among merchants and others in this garding an influx of fur traders into that country. It was said that it was an incountry would be found to be groundless, hospitable region; but he believed that and that their agents, who had established there was a long line of country, of cona moral influence over most of the natives, siderable width, which was not only capable would be left to exercise any necessary of cultivation, but which was really fertile. control. The event had justified that an- He did not think that the establishment of ticipation in the Indian territory. a communication would be so expensive as further north was a district in which some persons imagined. One peculiarity gold had been discovered. That discovery of the rivers on each side of the Rocky had greatly altered the state of things, Mountains was, that they were navigable and he expected that he should have to to points wonderfully near to their sources. resort to the powers of an Act passed There was a route, which he thought some years ago, the title of which would would be practicable, by which persons not at first sight show its relation to starting up the Fraser River reached its British Columbia-the Falkland Islands source in fourteen or fifteen days, nine of Act. That Act gave power to the Queen which they spent on board a steamer, and by Order in Council to make provision in the remainder in a stage-waggon. You certain colonies in which no settled or then reached a point on the western organized government existed. He did side of the Rocky Mountains, whence you not think it would be dignified for Her had the option of either navigating the Majesty's Government to attempt to exer- Upper Satckachewan or cutting straight cise influence over the Hudson's Bay Com- across to the Red River-a fifteen days' pany by means of threats. The only part journey. To make this route practicable of the Company's territories in which co- we had a right to expect that the colony lonization could have been expected before of British Columbia, on its side, should bear the discovery of gold was near the Red the whole expense of making the roads up River; but the discovery of gold had to the summit of the Pass of the Rocky effected a considerable change, and a very Mountains, and it could hardly be doubted large district on the Satckachewan must, that Canada would be equally ready to he believed, eventually pass out of the effect that communication on its side, and hands of the Hudson's Bay Company, and within its territory. The House of Comany adjustment with that Company must mons, however, could not be expected to affect a much larger tract of country than Vote a sum of money to perfect the comthe Red River Settlement. Considering munication between one of these points the rapid progress of British Columbia, it and the other. With regard to the alleged was certain that before long there must be discovery of gold on the Satckachewan, he some means of communication across the could not say that he was thoroughly concontinent. It was true that the commu- vinced on this point. No doubt, gold had nication between this country and British been discovered there, but whether it was Columbia by means of steamers between in such quantities as would lead to any Panama and Victoria might be improved. great immigration could not yet be deterHe trusted such a line would be estab- mined. It was not likely, however, that lished, because for some time that route while the extraordinary productiveness of must be the cheapest and most ordinary the gold-fields in the Cariboo district conroute from this country. But the progress tiuued, that many persons would go in of events would not allow the means of search of the precious metals in the Satcommunication to be confined to that ckachewan district. He could assure the route. A short time back, when there noble Earl, that so far from having neg. was an apprehension of hostilities with the lected the whole subject, he had been, and United States, he was unable to commu- still was, in communication with parties nicate with the Governor of British Co- with a view to a telegraphic and some kind lumbia for the space of six weeks, there of postal communication across the counThe Duke of Newcastle

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