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123 Artillery

{LORDS: Ranges Bill. 124 the policemen would have to stand god- | the Chairman do report Progress, and ask fathers to most of these children. He (Mr. leave to sit again.” Newdegate) did not believe that any such The Committee divided :- Ayes 58; function was contemplated in their en- Noes 104: Majority 46. gagement. The House could not hope to satisfy the foreign influence which actu

LORD EDWIN HILL moved, that the

Chairman do now leave the chair. ated the Roman hierarchy in Ireland by concession : submission would only create Motion made, and Question put, “That confusion. He should, therefore, cordially the Chairman do now leave the Chair.” vote with the hon. Member for Dublin for maintaining the simple provision of Noes 102: Majority 48.

The Committee divided : - Ayes 54; the law, which extended the protection of the State to these poor children, who SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he hoped the had been deserted by their parents, and arrangement which he had proposed would who had no other provision, spiritual be acceded to, now that the sense of the or temporal, save what the State gave Committee had been twice taken. them.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, he was Question put, “That the words

quite sure that it was not the intention of

proposed to be left out stand part of the his hon. Friend who moved that the ChairClause."

man leave the chair to put an end to the

The Committee divided : Ayes 97;
Noes 69: Majority 28.

SIR GEORGE GREY said, he had no

objection to report progress now, MR. VANCE said, he would move that MR. WHITESIDE observed, that he the Chairman report progress.

had not been aware that Clause 11 would SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he hoped be struck out without any discussion. that the hon. Gentleman would not press House resumed. his Motion. After seven hours' discus- Committee report Progress; to sit again sion they had got through two important on Monday, 16th June. clauses, and there was no reason why they should not continue the consideration of the Bill.


SECOND READING. proceeding with the Bill at that hour (12 Order for Second Reading read. o'clock).

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, he MR. 'O'BRIEN said, he hoped it would wished to know the extent of property be known from what quarter the opposi- above and below high-water mark that tion to the further progress of the Bill would be affected by the Bill, the rent to proceeded.

be charged, and whether the public could SIR ROBERT PEEL said, he would get compensation for the loss of fishing, suggest that the clause under discussion &c., at certain times of the tide? should be adopted before progress was re

Sir GEORGE LEWIS observed, that ported. He proposed to strike out the the hon. Member, although he had a very following clause, and at its next sitting, keen nose for questions of foreshore, was therefore, the Committee would, if his mistaken in that instance. The Bill was suggestion were acceeded to, proceed with not intended to affect such questions, but the consideration of Clause 12.

merely to prevent accidents, by prohibitMr. VANCE said, he had no objection ing vessels from anchoring within the line to that arrangement.

of fire. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill read 2', and committed for Monday Clause agreed to.

next. Clause 11 (Property hitherto exempt

House adjourned at One o'clock. from Rating, as being used for charitable or public Purposes, to be rated).

SIR EDWARD GROGAN said, he ob- HOUSE OF LORDS, jected to the omission of the clause, and would move, that the Chairman should

Friday, May 30, 1862. report progress.

MINUTES. ]– PUBLIC Bills.- 1a Crown Private

Motion made, and Question put, " That 3® Customs and Inland Revenue.

Mr. Newdegate

THE SLAVE TRADE — TREATY WITII | mated expenditure of the year amounts to THE UNITED STATES.

exactly £70,000,000. It was taken at OBSERVATIONS.

£70,040,000; but owing to the diminution, EARL RUSSELL said, he could now

I believe, of some of the Miscellaneous inform liis noble and learned Friend (Lord Estimates, the charge for the year amounts Brougham), who had addressed to him a to £70,000,000. The estimated receipts Question the other evening in reference to would have been £70,190,000 ; but there the slave trade, that Her Majesty's Go- has been made a slight change, which will vernment had received a communication make a difference in the estimated receipts from the Spanish Government, through of £10,000, which will reduce the income our Minister at Madrid, stating that the of the year to £70,180,000, leaving a small Spanish Government were anxious for the estimated surplus of £180,000. That is suppression of the slave trade, and pro- a small surplus, undoubtedly-I admit, mising that they would continue to exer. smaller than I think is generally desirable cise every vigilance for the accomplish to maintain ; and as that is a point to ment of that object. But they did not which the attention of the House is likely make any allusion to the point to which to be specially directed, I wish to say a his noble and learned Friend had referred very few words with regard to the surplus -namely, that trading in slaves should be being so small this year before I proceed treated as piracy on the part of Spanish any further with the general subject. No subjects.

doubt, in the usual course of events it is LORD BROUGHAM said, he had not wise and prudent to have a larger margin the least doubt that the Spanish Govern- for possible contingencies, any available ment would use the same vigilance as it surplus being devoted to the repayment of had hitherto used ;” but their previous the national debt.

But there are years vigilance was really no vigilance at all, when that is impossible-years when the unless, indeed, it was a vigilance in sup- country is engaged in war, and when it porting and encouraging the slave trade becomes an almost hopeless task to balance rather than putting it down. What was the income with the expenditure. desired was, that the Spanish Government question I have, then, to ask your Lordshould adopt the suggestion of their own ships to consider is, whether there is anyofficer, Marshal Serrano, who said that the thing in the present circumstances of this way to suppress the slave trade was to country to place the present condition of make it piracy and punishable capitally, financial affairs in a somewhat intermediate He had looked into the question of law, condition ; whether we are in such a per. and he had no doubt that any person en

fectly normal state as to make it reasonable gaged in fitting out in England any vessel, to expect that the usual rule should be ap. ship, or boat to be employed in the slave plied ; or whether there are not exceptional trade, was punishable with fourteen years' be satisfied with a less than usual surplus. transportation.

I admit that if I fail to show that any exCUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL. ceptional circumstances attach to the pre

sent state of affairs ; if I also fail to show (BILL NO. 78.] THIRD READING.

that there is any possible elasticity in the Order of the Day for the Third Reading revenue ; if I fail to show that, however read.

great our expenditure may be, there is no EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the reason to hope that it will be diminished, Bill which I propose to your Lordships I shall fail entirely in showing that we are that you should now read the third time justified in not providing a very large surand pass, and in regard to which it was surplus. I must observe, in the first place, thought that the discussion might be much that during the last three years we have more conveniently taken on the present had many adverse circumstances to contend stage, is unquestionably a measure of very with. One year we had a decidedly bad great importance, inasmuch as, on the one harvest, next year we had one far from hand, it involves a very large amount of tax. good ; and next year an event often vaguely ation on which the Estimates for the year prophesied, but by many deemed hardly have been founded, and, on the other, it con- possible, happened in the United States of tains many remarkable changes and im- America, most deplorable to themselves, provements essentially beneficial in regard and in its consequences to all the rest of to our system of national finance. The esti- the world with whom they were engaged in commercial relations ; which not only this great expenditure should be in any deprived us of that supply of cotton so degree diminislied. I believe I am esnecessary to our manufactures, but dimi- pressing the opinion of the Government nished our exports to that country in one when I state in the strongest terms their year by something like £12,000,000, and feelings upon this point-their conviction affected the conimercial relations of nearly that it is their paramount duty to provide every country with which we are in the for the effective defence of the shores of habit of transacting business. Besides this, this island, and the protection of our comwithin these three years we have had war merce all over the world. Already, how-war with China, war in New Zealand- ever, an important step has been made in and we have also had to make expensive the direction of reduction of expenditure. preparations for a war which, thank God, Comparing the estimated expenditure of has been averted, with the United States the present year with the expenditure themselves. Taking the expenditure of of 1861-2, there is a diminution of 1858-9, and comparing it with that of £1,833,000, and comparing it with the the present year, the excess of expenditure expenditure of 1860-1, there is a diminuowing to these circumstances during the tion in round numbers of £3,500,000, last three years amounts to no less than It may be said that this diminution is £20,000,000. I do not think that de- merely the result of the cessation of the mand was unwisely met by Parliament. I Chinese war, and of the extraordinary exbelieve it has been provided for in a wise penditure for the defence of the North and prudent manner. Some extraordinary American provinces; but, deducting these resources were drawn upon to meet a por- two great sources of expense, I still find tion of the charge, chiefly by taking up that the expenditure is reduced as comthe malt credit, the Spanish payment, and pared with 1861.2 to the amount of repayments of advances for works. The £735,000, and as compared with 1860-1 balances in the Exchequer were reduced to the amount of £1,361,000. Without £2,530,000. With regard to the dimi- venturing to prophesy how far further nution of the balances I may perhaps say reduction can take place — although the a word. I have heard great objections Government of ller Majesty, when they made to the reduction of these balances, believe it prudent and safe to do so, will and I believe the Chancellor of the Es in the highest interests of the country chequer himself does not consider them apply their best energies to diminish the sufficiently strong at the present moment: burdens of the people-I must say that I but they are sufficiently large to meet all do not think we have any reason to despair the demands that are made upon them ; of further reductions in the public charges. and I believe there is practical economy in With regard next to the question of the keeping them low, if they are capable of national income, nobody now focls any meeting the public requirements. The doubt of the wonderful elasticity of our circumstances to which I have adverted revenue. While discussing a question of show, I think, that the present is not a taxation last year, I called your Lordships' normal year. A portion of the £20,000,000 attention to the elasticity of our revenue to which I have adverted was replaced by under the financial system which has so £6,500,000 arising from the extraordinary happily obtained during the past twenty resources just mentioned. The other years. The more you reduce or the more £14,000,000 was raised from taxation. you abolish Customs duties, the more buoyTherefore I think the manner in which that ant they appear to become, and tlie larger demand was met was not unwise. There the sum they yield to the Exchequer. is another circumstance, which perhaps Still more remarkable is the effect prohardly bears on the question, yet it is one duced by the abolition--not the reduction, which should not be entirely overlooked. but the abolition—of Excise duties. BcDuring that time we have increased the fore the year 1858 there were twenty-seven debt by £1,200,000 for fortifications ; and Excise duties. Within the last few years on the other hand, we have redeemed debt fifteen out of those twenty-seven have been to the amount of £4,000,000.

abolished, and already the remaining I think, then, I have said enough to twelve produce a larger amount than the show that we are in an abnormal state in whole number yielded before. There is regard to our finances ; and I now come nothing in the present state of affairs to to the question whether it is possible for diminish your confidence, that when you the Goverument to entertain a hope that reduce or abolish obuoxious taxes-imposts which press down our commerce and / if it continues at the same rate as du. manufactures - the revenue will eventually ring the last four months, will amount to be no loser by your measures. During the £10,000,000 per annum, nearly equilast three years, notwithstanding large valent to the £12,000,000 to which reductions and remissions of taxation, the I have referred as having been lost produce of the remaining sources of re. during the last year in our trade with the venue has increased at the rate of about United States- I do think that we have £900,000 per annum. I think, therefore, every reason to congratulate ourselves we need not speak in a desponding tone of upon having agreed to that treaty of comthe prospects of our revenue under the merce, which, though at first objected to in existing financial system.

many quarters, has produced such gratifyUnder all these circumstances I am sure ing results. The total increase in our your Lordships will consider that the Go- exports to France, as compared with two vernment have exercised a wise discretion years ago, is 150 per cent. In cotton and in not asking the House of Commons for cotton yarns the increase is 300 per cent ; further taxation at this moment-further in hardware and cutlery, it is 200 per ta ration, not for the purpose of making cent; while in iron and steel

, from which, both ends meet, but for the purpose of in consequence of the high duties still securing a large margin at a time when a maintained by France, little was expected, large portion of our population are endur- the increase also amounts to 200 per cent. ing great privation in a manner which is the increase in linen and linen yarns is 50 most creditable alike to themselves and to per cent, and in woollen yarns it is no less the country to which they belong. Atihan between 500 and 600 per cent. I such a period I think it would have been think these figures are most remarkable ; most inexpedient and most unstatesman- and if you consider what the parts of the like for the Government to propose, or for country are from which our increased ex. Parliament to sanction, additional taxa- ports are made to France, you will see how tion, when we all naturally wish to relieve far they go to alleviate the distress which as much as possible the distressed people afflicts a large portion of the industrious of the manufacturing districts. The other classes of tbis country. It is a great day the noble Earl opposite spoke of the source of satisfaction to me to remember necessity of hariug a discussion upon this that up to the last moment the Legislature Bill in the present serious state of our has continued to remove all those painful finances. Considering some of the mat- restrictions which weighed so severely ters to which I have already alluded- upon our commercial and manufacturing considering, more particularly, the state of resources. They are nearly all swept civil war which now exists in North Ame- away, and we behold the beneficial result rica, and of which it is impossible to say in our increased trade with almost every what the result may be—the question of part of the world, and in the impression our finances must be serious ; and I have produced upon the poor population of our no hesitation in saying, that in my opinion own country. That portion of our populait is most important and desirable that our tion which is now suffering such severe dis. fioancial position should be fairly and tress know that they have nothing to comopenly discussed by your Lordships, when plain of in the conduct of the Government taking part, concurrently with the other or Parliament; they know that the LegisHouse, in passing a Bill of this sort. I lature is not to blame for any of those must deny, however, that there is anything unhappy events which are causing them so in the state of our finances, serious as I much unmerited distress, and which are admit it to be, calculated to cause alarm or owing to external causes ; and to the fceldespair. It has been well said, that mis- ing thereby produced in their breasts, as trust has its dupes as well as over-confi. well as to their own improved moral, social, dence ; and when I reflect how much we and intellectual condition, I attribute the have to console us—when I look around order, peace, and contentment wbich reign and see the state of the country-when I in the suffering manufacturing districts, consider all the redeeming features, even and which, in their turn, have an importin the case of our distressed manufac- ant bearing upon the material prosperity of turing population in Lancashire and parts the country. 'My Lords, I believe that our of Yorkshire—when I observe the im- revenue, founded upon a solid basis, is not mense benefits caused by our increased in danger. I believe it was prudent not to trade with France an increase which, attempt any innovation at the present time. VOL. CLXVII. (THIRD SERIES.)


I believe it was wise in this Bill to renew / recollections of two years of unsatisfac. the income tax and the sugar duties at tory finance. Be that as it might, their their former rates, to relieve an important Lordships still reserved to themselves the portion of the agricultural community by full right of either amending or rejecting commuting the hop duty, and to make any measure of this sort, or any measure some change, purely aduinistrative, with of the kind that might come before them, respect to certain stamps and the admission throwing on those who had endeavoured to of wines. I believe this course to be pru- place them in this dilemma the responsident, and it is in this belief that I move bility of so doing. If the House of Com. the third reading of the Bill. I know it is mons chose to curtail its own privileges, not the intention of your Lordships to ob- and to merge half-a-dozen debates on as struct the passing of the Bill in any way; many different changes in a single debate but, at the same time, I trust that the dis. on a single Bill, their Lordships had do passionate debate of this evening will bring right to complain of their so doing. He out more clearly than ever that there is not went along with the noble Earl in thinking that ground for despair or alarm with re- the circumstances of the year exceptional gard to our financial position which appears and abnormal. He thought that no reflecto be entertained in some quarters. tive person could at this moment look

Moved, that the Bill be now read 3a. either at home or abroad without a feeling

The EARL OF CARNARVON said, of great anxiety. At home, whatever that the noble Earl, in discussing this elasticity and recuperative power there Bill, had taken a somewhat one-sided view. might be in their finances, there was, It was perhaps, in one sense, the most im. he would not say a declining, but a de. portant Bill that had ever been brought be- pressed and suffering condition of trade. fore their Lordships' House. It was a Bill There was a scarcity of employment in which dealt with between £22,000,000 and one branch of industry, begetting dis£23,000,000 of public taxation, and on tress, and that distress, however nobly that ground alone was deserving their borne, acting and re-acting on other classes Lordships' most serious consideration. It -small shopkeepers, petty tradesmen, and was the largest Money Bill that had ever small ratepayers, in a vicious circle. Nor, come up to their Lordships' House; and whether the amount of the stocks of cotthe noble Earl had not alluded to the fact ton in America, or the amount of those that it came before their Lordships' House available in England was considered, could in a new, and he might almost say, an ex- there be said to be a prospect of imtraordinary manner. It embodied in its mediate relief. Looking abroad, they provisions an amount of taxation that had viewed a scene disfigured with bloodshed never been raised under any previous Bill. or darkened by political doubt. Under It had been the practice of late years to these circumstances, what was the policy deal with these separate sources of taxa- which reasonable men would pursue ? He tion more or less in separate measures, should say, after making full

, ample, unand he did not think any ground of expe- equivocal preparation for the military and diency had been shown for the change now naval defences of the country, let them pade ; but if their Lordships would remem- husband their resources, and allow, as far ber certain circumstances within the last as possible, a margin over and above the two years—the circumstances which had foreseen disbursements of the year. In one attended the repeal of the paper duties— word, let them take nothing for granted, they would be at no loss to conjecture but found every calculation on a basis as what were the feelings that had dictated unfavourable as possible to themselves. this change. It was, in fact, the comple- The noble Earl had dwelt much on the tion of the threat held out by the Chan- exceptional character of the year and the cellor of the Exchequer two years ago, elasticity of the resources of the country. when their Lordships, in the undoubted But whilst the future is a subject of inexercise of their right, interposed their definite conjecture, from the past and the veto upon what they considered a gratui. present alone can any safe inference be tous and wasteful sacrifice of revenue under drawn in a financial debate. This elasthe precarious circumstances of the State. ticity of the national resources seemed It was quite true that their Lordships did to him (the Earl of Carnarvon) to be a not now propose to resist this Bill; but he collateral question, and he would not dismight question how far it was wise and cuss it. He would accept from the Godignified to revive instead of burying the vernment their estimate of what was

Earl Granville

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