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House to be taken by surprise. The Amendment would be withdrawn ; but still clause had reference to Carrickfergus he trusted that the House would support Harbour, and he doubted whether the him, when the Bill reached the Committee, people of Carrickfergus knew how far in an endeavour to put an end to these this clause affected their interests. As exactions on the part of the Woods and this clause stood, not a single stone could Forests. That Department had no right be put upon another for the improvement to tax the promoters of beneficial schemes of the harbour until the consent of the in the manner they proposed to do. No Commissioners of Woods and Forests was one would dispute that a great portion of obtained; and, from his experience of the the shore was the property of the Crown. Woods and Forests, he was persuaded the He would not now go into the question Commissioners would not consent to the whether those shores which were the proimprovement of any harbour without a perty of the Crown were held in trust for money consideration. It was the duty of the public or to produce revenue. He did the House to protect the public from such not believe that they were held for the a system of petty extortion, and he moved latter purpose; but however that might that the Bill should be committed that be, a great many shores now belonged to day six months. private individuals, to whom the Crown had granted or sold them. He thought attempts like this on the part of the Woods and Forests were nothing less than extortion. The Woods and Forests were nothing more than the administration of the property of the Crown; the Board of Trade and the Admiralty were intrusted with the supervision of the works.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that nothing was more generally admitted than that the system of conditional orders was a very great improvement on the old system. It applied to enclosures, piers, and harbours-it saved a great deal of expense, facilitated public improvements, and was a great accommodation to all parties interested. With respect to the course pursued by his right hon. Friend (Mr. M. Gibson), he had no choice in the matter, as the law required that the assent of the Woods and Forests should be obtained. The property was vested in the Crown, but he quite admitted that it was held for the public; it was necessary, therefore, to see that no use was made of it which might be detrimental to the public interest. The Woods and Forests required a very small acknowledgment, not at all a heavy tax upon the parties concerned, but by way of admission that it was Crown property; and he thought that in so doing they were only maidtaining a right intrusted to them.

Amendment proposed,

To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve

itself into the said Committee," -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. KINNAIRD seconded the Amend


MR. MILNER GIBSON said, there was a general Act of Parliament which required that no provisional order should be made by the Board of Trade for the construction of a new harbour, or the improvement of an old one, without the consent of the Woods and Forests. It might be right or wrong that the Commissioners should have such a power, but, in making the provisional orders which the present Bill was intended to confirm, the Board of Trade had no option but to proceed according to the directions of the Act of Parliament. The House, in fact, might as well reject a private Bill because its promoters had complied with the Standing Orders as agree to the Amendment of his hon. Friend.

MR. FINLAY said, that if the Bill were extended to Scotland, it would injuriously affect the interests both of the public and the proprietors in that country.

MR. LIDDELL said, there was no analogy between a provisional order which was made by the Board of Trade, on an and fo

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, he was glad to hear the noble Lord's admission that the Crown held the foreshores for the public interest.

MR. PAULL said, that the question beex parte statement and a private Bill, and fore the House was not whether the Woods he hoped the House would at once repu- and Forests should exercise the right rediate any such doctrine. ferred to, but whether a Bill to confirm

MR. Ě. P. BOUVERIE hoped that this

certain provisional orders should pass. If


before the Committee was, whether, by excluding the paragraph, they would not do an injury to the promoters.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, the Woods and Forests wanted to attach to their consent a condition by virtue of which they should have the right of approval of the works which were to be constructed under the provisional orders; and what his hon. Friend wished was, that the Committee should say whether the Woods and Forests were right in attaching that condition. He did not think either the interests of the

any objection was felt to the authority of the Woods and Forests to issue these provisional orders, the issue ought to be fairly raised by a substantive Motion.

MR. HASSARD thought it was a fallacy to assert that the Crown was in all cases the owner of the foreshore.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
House in Committee.

MR. ELLICE (St. Andrew's) moved to omit the 13th paragraph of the schedule. The clause as it stood gave the Woods and Forests power to interfere with works which the Admiralty and the Board of Trade had sanctioned. This was, in other words, giving them power to extort money from those who were making these harbours in the interest of the public.

Amendment proposed, to leave out paragraph 13.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests ought not to be allowed to have the power, or allowed that interference over the harbours which this clause would give them.

MR. PEEL supported the clause, and said, it had been framed in accordance with the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, and that there could be no sound objection to it.

MR. BLACKBURN trusted the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for St. Andrew's (Mr. Ellice) would be agreed


THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, the proper mode of proceeding, if hon. Members thought that Parliament had given too much power to the Woods and Forests, was to introduce a new Bill to repeal or amend the Act under which those provisional orders were made.

MR. CHILDERS said, if the Committee consented to the clause, they would be acting directly in the teeth of the Act of last Session, and of the decision of the House in the present Session also.

MR. PAULL said, the Woods and Forests would give their sanction, upon condition that a clause which would protect their rights was introduced in the particular Acts. They did not assert their claims beforehand. What they said was, We give our sanction to your proposed plans; but we reserve to ourselves the right, when you come to execute those plans, to put in our claims." The real question


Mr. Paull

public or the rights of the Crown required such a condition. In many cases, moreover, it was monstrous to require the consent of the Woods and Forests, for the property did not always belong to the


MR. KINNAIRD hoped that the Government would give way on this point, as it was one on which there could be no doubt.

MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that the Board of Trade had acted strictly in accordance with the Act of Parliament, which required the consent of the Woods and Forests to be given. The Woods and Forests had given their consent with a condition; but if the Committee did away with the condition, then the Woods and Forests could not be said to have given their consent. The condition was not an unreasonable one, and was in accordance with Parlia mentary practice, because it was inserted in every private Bill.

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Monday, June 30, 1862.

MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Consolidated Fund
(£10,000,000); Companies, &c.; Attorneys
and Solicitors Amendment.
2 Courts of the Church of Scotland; The
Queen's Prison Discontinuance; Sandhurst

Vesting; Portsdown Fair Discontinuance.
3a Red Sea and India Telegraph Company.
Royal Assent.-Peace Preservation (Ireland):
Local Government Supplemental; Oxford Uni-
versity; Retiring Pay, &c. (British Forces,
India); Universities (Scotland) Act Amend-
ment; Public Works and Harbours Act Amend-
ment; Landed Property Improvement (Ire-
land) Acts Amendment.

was clear that neither the Government of France nor that of England could interfere in the quarrel. But, at the same time, every one was most anxious that these horrors should cease, and those who most fervently cherished that desire were those who, like himself, had always been most friendly to the Americans. For upwards of sixty years he had been known as a warm advocate at all times of the American Government and the American people. Some might recollect that he was once called the partisan of Jefferson and again the Attorney General of Madison; and it was because he was a most earnest well-wisher of America that he was specially afflicted by the present condition of that country; and could his voice reach them, he would, as a friend, a fellow Christian, a fellow creature, implore them to make an end of this horrible war. Others, too, who had uniformly taken the part of the Americans, were now most cruelly shocked and disappointed by the present course of events. If the civil war continued, they would be bound to admit that the worst stain on the American character was not domestic slavery. white men had suffered more in the war than ever did the negroes under the most cruel of their masters. The present fratricidal strife was doing more mischief, creating more misery, and laying the foundation of more lasting animosity even than their unhappy "domestic institution." If the Americans would only listen to the voice of their true friends, they would, if they regarded the continuance of their reputation in this country, and of our affection towards them, see the absolute necessity of putting an end to this horrible war. He could not, for his life, believe that the good sense of those among the Americans who were better informed and capable of calm reflection, would not,



LORD BROUGHAM said, that he could not refrain from addressing a few words to their Lordships, to call their attention to some private accounts he had received from individuals of the civil war now raging in America. The horrors of this contest, according to these persons, who were most friendly to our kinsmen across the Atlantic, far surpassed anything that had appeared in the public journals. It appeared that not only were thousands on thousands of men embattled on either side, and displaying a courage and a conduct which were above all commendation; but the war, and all the malignant passions with which war was accompanied, had taken root in every rank of life, and all the evils of a civil contest were experienced in their greatest intensity. The inhabitants of the same village were banded against each other, and neighbouring farmers and proprietors daily armed themselves and went forth, not to fight in their armies, but to carry on a sort of private warfare and to gratify their personal feelings of animosity or revenge. In private families where a difference of opinion as to the war pre-sooner or later, be exerted to bring about vailed the most intense animosity existed, this most desirable consummation. and was avowed almost without shame. He had heard one instance of a most respectable family, in which the father. and son had taken opposite sides, and the son had been heard to say that he hoped to hear of his father's death. He threw out no imputation on the character of the American people. Proverbially, the corruption of the best was always worst; and a dispute among near relatives was always excessively bitter. But although the war might be explained, it could not be justified or even extenuated. It


BILL-[BILL No. 129.1-REPORT. Amendments reported (according to Order).

LORD REDESDALE moved an Amendment restricting the operation of the measure to children in workhouses, or the children of parents who were receiving indoor relief.

THE EARL OF DEVON said, that he felt so strongly the injury which the pro

posed restriction would do to the Bill, that if the Amendment were pressed, he should take the sense of the House upon it.

Amendment negatived.
Bill to be read 3" on Thursday next.

until their Lordships had been informed of its provisions. It might be that the proposition of the noble Marquess was theoretically right, and that it was consistent with uniformity; but it was a singular fact that no single practitioner on either side of St. George's Channel had ever com


ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS AMEND- plained of the existing practice as a grievance, or had ever suggested any measure of the kind; nor had he ever heard of any practical injury being sustained to which it was desirable to apply a remedy. If the principle of the Bill were conceded, it must have a very wide extension, and a much larger inquiry and a further consideration of the subject in all its branches would be necessary than their Lordships would be able to give at this period of the Session. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Marquess would not now proceed with his Bill. The whole subject would be examined before a Select Committee in another Session.


THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE said, that since the Union the greatest desire had been shown to assimilate the law and the administration of justice in Ireland and England, and in his opinion it would be wise to allow the barristers and attorneys of one country to practise in the other. He was not prepared to make a proposition with respect to barristers, whose call was subject to regulations by the Benchers of the Inns of Court; but the admission of attorneys to the courts in England and Ireland was regulated by Act of Parliament, and he hoped their Lordships would agree with him that it was desirable to amend the existing law, so as to give the attorneys of one country permission to practise in the Superior Courts of the other. He could see no possible objection to it, and he conceived it would be of great advantage to the public. A landowner, the bulk of whose property was in England, and who resided in England, and who possessed property in Ireland, ought to be able to employ his family solicitor to manage business connected with his Irish property; and persons in Ireland who had to enforce rights in England ought to have the same power, and be able to appeal to the English courts of justice by means of their own solicitor, who was necessarily best acquainted with the circumstances and nature of their claims. Irish attorneys and solicitors were at present allowed to practise before their Lordships' House to prosecute Irish appeals. He had prepared a short Bill on the subject, which he begged to lay on the table, and he hoped the noble and learned Lords would give it their consideration.

The noble Lord then presented "A Bill to amend the Laws relating to the Attorneys and Solicitors of the Superior Courts of England and Ireland respectively."

LORD CRANWORTH agreed that it was impossible to contemplate any actual legislation during the present Session, but thought that the public were much indebted to the noble Marquess for having called attention to the subject. He could not concur with the noble Marquess in thinking, that if any reform of this sort was required, it should stop short in throwing open the courts of one country to the legal practitioners of the other at the rank of attorneys and solicitors, or even at advocates. He thought the introduction of the Bill might be very useful, as laying a foundation for the discussion of questions of wider scope. He did not see, for example, why it might not be extremely convenient for England and Ireland that the Judges of the Superior Courts of one country should preside in those of the other. He thought that in some future Session of Parliament some inquiry into the question might be made.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE said, he was quite aware that such a reform, once commenced, could not stop at this stage, and it was for the purpose of calling attention to the subject that he had intro

duced this Bill.

After a few words from LORD WENSLEYDALE,

Bill read 1*[Bill 136].


had not been aware that it was the inten- GAME AMENDMENT BILL-[BILL No. 123.]


tion of the noble Marquess to present a Bill on this subject, and he thought it would not be desirable to enter into a discussion The Earl of Devon

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

LORD BERNERS, in moving the second | game. It would be impossible to assent to reading of the Game Amendment Bill, such a clause-and, as he was reminded, said, he would not trouble their Lordships a carriage belonging to any of their Lordat any length by repeating the description ships might be taken before the magishe had given on a former occasion of the trates on suspicion of containing game prevalence of crime under the present unlawfully come by. The second clause system; but he would call their attention provided, that "if any game, or the head, to the memorial signed by the chief con- skin, feathers, or other part thereof, or the stables of twenty-eight counties, which eggs thereof, or any hare, rabbit, or any showed the impunity with which poach- snare or engine for the taking of game, ing was carried on in districts where the hares, or rabbits," should be found in the game was not fully preserved. He con- possession of any person or upon his pretended that, apart from the question whe-mises with his knowledge, and such perther the Game Laws were good or bad, as son should be unable to satisfy a justice of long as they remained in the statute-book the peace that he came lawfully by such they should be enforced. Having received game, or had a lawful occasion for such an intimation from Her Majesty's Go- snare or engine, he should pay any sum vernment, that it did not intend this Ses- not exceeding £5. Then the clause went on sion to bring forward a measure on the to enact, that if any such person should not subject, he had ventured to lay one be- under the said provision be liable to confore the House. One of its provisions was viction, the justice at his discretion might a registry for dealers in game. He had summon before him every person through been assured by one of the largest game- whose hands these articles appeared to dealers in England that such a registry have passed, who, if he did not satisfy would be a great boon to the licensed the justice that he came lawfully by them, dealers, and a discouragement to the un- was to be liable to the same penalty. licensed and dishonest trader. He had That was a strong clause; but the next also adopted one of the provisions of the was still more arbitrary, because, upon the Metropolitan Police Act, that gave the oath of a credible witness that there was police in the London district the power "a good ground to suspect that any of stopping suspected persons, and taking lurchers, snap dogs, springing dogs, nets, from them things stolen or unlawfully or engines are in possession of any person obtained. It had been said that it would not legally authorized," a police-constable be very improper to give to country ma- would be able to enter and search the gistrates the same power of dealing with house, and take the occupier before the poachers that the Police Act gave to the magistrate, who was empowered to inflict London magistrates in cases of persons a fine, and order the dogs, nets, or engines arrested on suspicion. But he believed "to be given over to and for the use of that the country magistrates had just as the lord of the manor where they may be much interest in the execution of the laws found, or otherwise destroyed." The peras any magistrate in the metropolitan dis- son suspected was to be called on to prove trict. He was convinced that the power a negative-namely, that the articles in would not be used improperly. It had his possession were not intended for any been his wish to bring in an efficient Bill; unlawful purpose. Upon this point it but he was willing to adopt Amendments would surely be very difficult for the maif suggested. gistrate to come to any conclusion. Taking the Bill as a whole, he thought that to pass it would only be to make their Lordships ridiculous, and to defeat the very object which they had in view. It was absolutely necessary that to such a subject careful consideration should be given; and probably the better plan would be

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a. EARL GRANVILLE felt that it would be very unwise to agree to the second reading of the Bill, especially as there was not the slightest chance of its passing the Commons. It was very undesirable that their Lordships should pass any measure of this kind without serious considera- to refer to the question to a Select Comtion. The first clause of the Bill ap-mittee. peared to him arbitrary in the highest degree. It empowered the police to arrest persons merely on the suspicion of possessing game, and to stop and detain any boat, carriage, or cart, suspected of carrying

LORD BERNERS said, that some portions of the Bill which had been objected to were identical with those of a measure passed last year.

THE EARL or DERBY should have

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