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House to be taken by surprise. The Amendment would be withdrawn; but still clause had reference to Carrickfergus he trusted that the House would support Harbour, and he doubted whether the him, when the Bill reached the Committee, people of Carrickfergus knew how far in an endeavour to put an end to these this clause affected their interests. As exactions on the part of the Woods and this clause stood, not a single stone could Forests. That Department had no right be put upon another for the improvement to tax the promoters of beneficial schemes of the harbour until the consent of the in the manner they proposed to do. No Commissioners of Woods and Forests was one would dispute that a great portion of obtained; and, from his experience of the the shore was the property of the Crown. Woods and Forests, he was persuaded the He would not now go into the question Commissioners would not consent to the whether those shores which were the proimprovement of any harbour without a perty of the Crown were held in trust for money consideration. It was the duty of the public or to produce revenue. He did the House to protect the public from such not believe that they were held for the a system of petty extortion, and he moved latter purpose; but however that might that the Bill should be committed that be, a great many shores now belonged to day six months. private individuals, to whom the Crown had granted or sold them. He thought attempts like this on the part of the Woods and Forests were nothing less than extortion. The Woods and Forests were nothing more than the administration of the property of the Crown; the Board of Trade and the Admiralty were intrusted with the supervision of the works.

Amendment proposed,

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To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words this House will, upon this day three months, resolve

itself into the said Committee," -instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

MR. KINNAIRD seconded the Amend


MR. MILNER GIBSON said, there was a general Act of Parliament which required that no provisional order should be made by the Board of Trade for the construction of a new harbour, or the improvement of an old one, without the consent of the Woods and Forests. It might be right or wrong that the Commissioners should have such a power, but, in making the provisional orders which the present Bill was intended to confirm, the Board of Trade had no option but to proceed according to the directions of the Act of Parliament. The House, in fact, might as well reject a private Bill because its promoters had complied with the Standing Orders as agree to the Amendment of his hon. Friend.

MR. FINLAY said, that if the Bill were extended to Scotland, it would injuriously affect the interests both of the public and the proprietors in that country.

MR. LIDDELL said, there was no analogy between a provisional order which was made by the Board of Trade, on an ex parte statement and a private Bill, and he hoped the House would at once repudiate any such doctrine.

MR. Ě. P. BOUVERIE hoped that this

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VISCOUNT PALMERSTON said, that nothing was more generally admitted than that the system of conditional orders was a very great improvement on the old system. It applied to enclosures, piers, and harbours-it saved a great deal of expense, facilitated public improvements, and was a great accommodation to all parties interested. With respect to the course pursued by his right hon. Friend (Mr. M. Gibson), he had no choice in the matter, as the law required that the assent of the Woods and Forests should be obtained. The property was vested in the Crown, but he quite admitted that it was held for the public; it was necessary, therefore, to see that no use was made of it which might be detrimental to the public interest. The Woods and Forests required a very small acknowledgment, not at all a heavy tax upon the parties concerned, but by way of admission that it was Crown property; and he thought that in so doing they were only maidtaining a right intrusted to them.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, he was glad to hear the noble Lord's admission that the Crown held the foreshores for the public interest.

MR. PAULL said, that the question before the House was not whether the Woods and Forests should exercise the right referred to, but whether a Bill to confirm certain provisional orders should pass. If

any objection was felt to the authority of the Woods and Forests to issue these provisional orders, the issue ought to be fairly raised by a substantive Motion.

MR. HASSARD thought it was a fallacy to assert that the Crown was in all cases the owner of the foreshore.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
House in Committee.

MR. ELLICE (St. Andrew's) moved to omit the 13th paragraph of the schedule. The clause as it stood gave the Woods and Forests power to interfere with works which the Admiralty and the Board of Trade had sanctioned. This was, in other words, giving them power to extort money from those who were making these harbours in the interest of the public.

Amendment proposed, to leave out paragraph 13.

MR. AUGUSTUS SMITH said, the Commissioners of Woods and Forests ought not to be allowed to have the power, or allowed that interference over the harbours which this clause would give them.

MR. PEEL supported the clause, and said, it had been framed in accordance with the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, and that there could be no sound objection to it.

MR. BLACKBURN trusted the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for St. Andrew's (Mr. Ellice) would be agreed


THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, the proper mode of proceeding, if hon. Members thought that Parliament had given too much power to the Woods and Forests, was to introduce a new Bill to repeal or amend the Act under which those provisional orders were made.

MR. CHILDERS said, if the Committee consented to the clause, they would be acting directly in the teeth of the Act of last Session, and of the decision of the House in the present Session also.

MR. PAULL said, the Woods and Forests would give their sanction, upon condition that a clause which would protect their rights was introduced in the particular Acts. They did not assert their claims beforehand. What they said was, "We give our sanction to your proposed plans; but we reserve to ourselves the right, when you come to execute those plans, to put in our claims." The real question

before the Committee was, whether, by excluding the paragraph, they would not do an injury to the promoters.

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, the Woods and Forests wanted to attach to their consent a condition by virtue of which they should have the right of approval of the works which were to be constructed under the provisional orders; and what his hon. Friend wished was, that the Committee should say whether the Woods and Forests were right in attaching that condition. He

did not think either the interests of the

public or the rights of the Crown required such a condition. In many cases, moreover, it was monstrous to require the consent of the Woods and Forests, for the property did not always belong to the


MR. KINNAIRD hoped that the Government would give way on this point, as it was one on which there could be no doubt.

MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that the Board of Trade had acted strictly in accordance with the Act of Parliament, which required the consent of the Woods and Forests to be given. The Woods and Forests had given their consent with a condition; but if the Committee did away with the condition, then the Woods and Forests could not be said to have given their consent. The condition was not an unreasonable one, and was in accordance with Parliamentary practice, because it was inserted in every private Bill.

Question put, "That paragraph 13 stand part of the Schedule.

The Committee divided: Noes 78: Majority 41.

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Ayes 37;

MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, that the adoption of the Amendment rendered necessary the omission of four other consequential clauses.

MR. MILNER GIBSON said, that after the expression of opinion just given by the Committee, he would omit the part in each of the other provisional orders in the Bill similar to that which had just been struck out.

House resumed.

sidered on Monday next, and to be printed Bill reported; as amended, to be con[Bill 171].

House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock, till Monday next.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Monday, June 30, 1862.

MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS.-1a Consolidated Fund (£10,000,000); Companies, &c.; Attorneys and Solicitors Amendment. 2 Courts of the Church of Scotland; The Queen's Prison Discontinuance; Sandhurst

Vesting; Portsdown Fair Discontinuance. 3a Red Sea and India Telegraph Company. Royal Assent.-Peace Preservation (Ireland): Local Government Supplemental; Oxford University; Retiring Pay, &c. (British Forces, India); Universities (Scotland) Act Amendment; Public Works and Harbours Act Amendment; Landed Property Improvement (Ireland) Acts Amendment.



LORD BROUGHAM said, that he could not refrain from addressing a few words to their Lordships, to call their attention to some private accounts he had received from individuals of the civil war now raging in America. The horrors of this contest, according to these persons, who were most friendly to our kinsmen across the Atlantic, far surpassed anything that had appeared in the public journals. It appeared that not only were thousands on thousands of men embattled on either side, and displaying a courage and a conduct which were above all commendation; but the war, and all the malignant passions with which war was accompanied, had taken root in every rank of life, and all the evils of a civil contest were experienced in their greatest intensity. The inhabitants of the same village were banded against each other, and neighbouring farmers and proprietors daily armed themselves and went forth, not to fight in their armies, but to carry on a sort of private warfare and to gratify their personal feelings of animosity or revenge. In private families where a difference of opinion as to the war prevailed the most intense animosity existed, and was avowed almost without shame. He had heard one instance of a most respectable family, in which the father and son had taken opposite sides, and the son had been heard to say that he hoped to hear of his father's death. He threw out no imputation on the character of the American people. Proverbially, the corruption of the best was always worst; and a dispute among near relatives was always excessively bitter. But although the war might be explained, it could not be justified or even extenuated. It

was clear that neither the Government of France nor that of England could interfere in the quarrel. But, at the same time, every one was most anxious that these horrors should cease, and those who most fervently cherished that desire were those who, like himself, had always been most friendly to the Americans. For upwards of sixty years he had been known as a warm advocate at all times of the American Government and the American people. Some might recollect that he was once called the partisan of Jefferson and again the Attorney General of Madison; and it was because he was a most earnest well-wisher of America that he was specially afflicted by the present condition of that country; and could his voice reach them, he would, as a friend, a fellow Christian, a fellow creature, implore them to make an end of this horrible war. Others, too, who had uniformly taken the part of the Americans, were now most cruelly shocked and disappointed by the present course of events. If the civil war continued, they would be bound to admit that the worst stain on the American character was not domestic slavery. The white men had suffered more in the war than ever did the negroes under the most cruel of their masters. The present fratricidal strife was doing more mischief, creating more misery, and laying the foundation of more lasting animosity even than their unhappy "domestic institution." If the Americans would only listen to the voice of their true friends, they would, if they regarded the continuance of their reputation in this country, and of our affection towards them, see the absolute necessity of putting an end to this horrible war. He could not, for his life, believe that the good sense of those among the Americans who were better informed and capable of calm reflection, would not, sooner or later, be exerted to bring about this most desirable consummation.


BILL-[BILL No. 129.]-REPORT. Amendments reported (according to Order).

LORD REDESDALE moved an Amendment restricting the operation of the measure to children in workhouses, or the children of parents who were receiving indoor relief."

THE EARL OF DEVON said, that he felt so strongly the injury which the pro

posed restriction would do to the Bill, that if the Amendment were pressed, he should take the sense of the House upon it.

Amendment negatived.

Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

until their Lordships had been informed of its provisions. It might be that the proposition of the noble Marquess was theoretically right, and that it was consistent with uniformity; but it was a singular fact that no single practitioner on either side of St. George's Channel had ever com

ATTORNEYS AND SOLICITORS AMEND-plained of the existing practice as a griev



THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE said, that since the Union the greatest desire had been shown to assimilate the law and the administration of justice in Ireland and England, and in his opinion it would be wise to allow the barristers and attorneys of one country to practise in the other. He was not prepared to make a proposition with respect to barristers, whose call was subject to regulations by the Benchers of the Inns of Court; but the admission of attorneys to the courts in England and Ireland was regulated by Act of Parliament, and he hoped their Lordships would agree with him that it was desirable to amend the existing law, so as to give the attorneys of one country permission to practise in the Superior Courts of the other. He could see no possible objection to it, and he conceived it would be of great advantage to the public. A landowner, the bulk of whose property was in England, and who resided in England, and who possessed property in Ireland, ought to be able to employ his family solicitor to manage business connected with his Irish property; and persons in Ireland who had to enforce rights in England ought to have the same power, and be able to appeal to the English courts of justice by means of their own solicitor, who was necessarily best acquainted with the circumstances and nature of their claims. Irish attorneys and solicitors were at present allowed to practise before their Lordships' House to prosecute Irish appeals. He had prepared a short Bill on the subject, which he begged to lay on the table, and he hoped the noble and learned Lords would give it their consideration.

The noble Lord then presented "A Bill to amend the Laws relating to the Attorneys and Solicitors of the Superior Courts of England and Ireland respectively."

ance, or had ever suggested any measure of the kind; nor had he ever heard of any practical injury being sustained to which it was desirable to apply a remedy. If the principle of the Bill were conceded, it must have a very wide extension, and a much larger inquiry and a further consideration of the subject in all its branches would be necessary than their Lordships would be able to give at this period of the Session. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Marquess would not now proceed with his Bill. The whole subject would be examined before a Select Committee in another Session.

LORD CRANWORTH agreed that it was impossible to contemplate any actual legislation during the present Session, but thought that the public were much indebted to the noble Marquess for having called attention to the subject. He could not concur with the noble Marquess in thinking, that if any reform of this sort was required, it should stop short in throwing open the courts of one country to the legal practitioners of the other at the rank of attorneys and solicitors, or even at advocates. He thought the introduction of the Bill might be very useful, as laying a foundation for the discussion of questions of wider scope. He did not see, for example, why it might not be extremely convenient for England and Ireland that the Judges of the Superior Courts of one country should preside in those of the other. He thought that in some future Session of Parliament some inquiry into the question might be made.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE said, he was quite aware that such a reform, once commenced, could not stop at this stage, and it was for the purpose of calling attention to the subject that he had intro

duced this Bill.

After a few words from LORD WENSLEYDALE,

Bill read 1[Bill 136].


THE LORD CHANCELLOR said, he had not been aware that it was the inten- GAME AMENDMENT BILL-[BILL No. 123.] tion of the noble Marquess to present a Bill on this subject, and he thought it would not be desirable to enter into a discussion

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

a carriage belonging to any of their Lordships might be taken before the magistrates on suspicion of containing game unlawfully come by. The second clause provided, that "if any game, or the head, skin, feathers, or other part thereof, or the eggs thereof, or any hare, rabbit, or any snare or engine for the taking of game, hares, or rabbits," should be found in the possession of any person or upon his premises with his knowledge, and such person should be unable to satisfy a justice of the peace that he came lawfully by such game, or had a lawful occasion for such snare or engine, he should pay any sum not exceeding £5. Then the clause went on to enact, that if any such person should not under the said provision be liable to conviction, the justice at his discretion might summon before him every person through whose hands these articles appeared to have passed, who, if he did not satisfy the justice that he came lawfully by them, was to be liable to the same penalty. That was a strong clause; but the next was still more arbitrary, because, upon the oath of a credible witness that there was "a good ground to suspect that any lurchers, snap dogs, springing dogs, nets, or engines are in possession of any person not legally authorized," a police-constable would be able to enter and search the house, and take the occupier before the magistrate, who was empowered to inflict a fine, and order the dogs, nets, or engines

LORD BERNERS, in moving the second | game. It would be impossible to assent to reading of the Game Amendment Bill, such a clause-and, as he was reminded, said, he would not trouble their Lordships at any length by repeating the description he had given on a former occasion of the prevalence of crime under the present system; but he would call their attention to the memorial signed by the chief constables of twenty-eight counties, which showed the impunity with which poaching was carried on in districts where the game was not fully preserved. He contended that, apart from the question whether the Game Laws were good or bad, as long as they remained in the statute-book they should be enforced. Having received an intimation from Her Majesty's Government, that it did not intend this Session to bring forward a measure on the subject, he had ventured to lay one before the House. One of its provisions was a registry for dealers in game. He had been assured by one of the largest gamedealers in England that such a registry would be a great boon to the licensed dealers, and a discouragement to the unlicensed and dishonest trader. He had also adopted one of the provisions of the Metropolitan Police Act, that gave the police in the London district the power of stopping suspected persons, and taking from them things stolen or unlawfully obtained. It had been said that it would be very improper to give to country magistrates the same power of dealing with poachers that the Police Act gave to the London magistrates in cases of persons arrested on suspicion. But he believed that the country magistrates had just as much interest in the execution of the laws as any magistrate in the metropolitan district. He was convinced that the power would not be used improperly. It had been his wish to bring in an efficient Bill; but he was willing to adopt Amendments if suggested.

to be given over to and for the use of the lord of the manor where they may be found, or otherwise destroyed." The person suspected was to be called on to prove a negative-namely, that the articles in his possession were not intended for any unlawful purpose. Upon this point it would surely be very difficult for the magistrate to come to any conclusion. TakMoved, That the Bill be now read 2a. ing the Bill as a whole, he thought that EARL GRANVILLE felt that it would to pass it would only be to make their Lordbe very unwise to agree to the second ships ridiculous, and to defeat the very reading of the Bill, especially as there object which they had in view. It was was not the slightest chance of its passing absolutely necessary that to such a subthe Commons. It was very undesirable ject careful consideration should be given; that their Lordships should pass any mea- and probably the better plan would be sure of this kind without serious considera- to refer to the question to a Select Comtion. The first clause of the Bill ap-mittee. peared to him arbitrary in the highest degree. It empowered the police to arrest persons merely on the suspicion of possessing game, and to stop and detain any boat, carriage, or cart, suspected of carrying

LORD BERNERS said, that some portions of the Bill which had been objected to were identical with those of a measure passed last year.

THE EARL OF DERBY should have

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