than to discuss what they were going to do on a future day. But as the Report of the Committee, with the evidence, had only been circulated that morning, he thought it not unfair to ask that the discussion on the Bill should be taken on a later day than Monday. He should therefore suggest to his right hon. Friend to fix it for Thursday. MR. GARNETT hoped the right hon. Gentleman would have a plan showing Mr. Pennethorne's diversion of the road at Whitehall Stairs, prepared before Thursday, and that he would also lay upon the table a sketch of the works submitted to the Select Committee. show that it would have been well had it been adopted. He would only say that the sooner the House changed its practice in appointing Committees on hybrid Bills the better. he said advisedly-there was an intention to place the Committee in an unfair position; and he defied any one to read the blue-book and come to a different conclusion. The whole question had been one of dispute between the heads of two departments-the head of the Office of Woods, and the head of the Office of Works. The Treasury was the department which had the control over both these, and it was the duty of the House to see that the Treasury had exercised its power in this matter. Even on the information the House had, it was clear that the Treasury intended that both schemes should be placed before the Committee. Only one was brought before it, and the alternative MR. E. P. BOUVERIE said, that when plan of Mr. Pennethorne was never before this Bill was being referred to a Select it at all. The Committee also intended Committee he took the liberty of suggestthat the whole of the correspondence ing, that in order to secure impartiality, should appear; but when the appendix the Committee should be selected in the came out, it appeared that the whole same way that Committees on private of the evidence had not been produced. Bills were selected. He got no support He proposed, on Monday next, unless for that suggestion; but he thought what the Government assured the House of they had just heard was sufficient to their intention to give the correspondence, to move that the same should be laid upon the table of the House. It was right he should tell the House, and, although it did not appear in the evidence, it was a fact that would be corroborated, SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE cordially that the Committee unanimously, with the assented to the opinion of the right hon. exception of the right hon. Gentleman, Gentleman, that these Committees ought insisted upon the whole of the correspond- to be chosen in some different manner. ence appearing. The House could not As an old Member of that House, he had come to a fair and just conclusion without had frequent occasions to serve on Comthe whole of this correspondence before it. mittees, but he had never suffered so much This was a matter of too much importance pain as from the mode in which the busito be decided in an off-hand way by any ness before them was conducted. A long Government; the House ought to have discussion must take place when this questhe subject brought fully before them. IIe tion came on, and as the noble Lord at therefore protested against any attempt to the head of the Government had assented force on this Bill after the House should to postpone the matter until Thursday, a have been fatigued by a long discussion debate at the present moment was about the national defences. As regard-necessary. He thought, however, he had ed the correspondence with Mr. Higgins, heard the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. he should like to know why Mr. Higgins Cowper) contradict an hon. Member on was to be informed more than anybody else-why he could not wait until the evidence was printed and in the hands of the Members? If he had waited patiently until the Members had the Report, he could have then sifted the evidence and made any comments he thought proper. If the right hon. Gentleman decided to go on with the Bill on Monday, it would be another instance of his unfairness towards the Committee. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON observed that there was no greater waste of time un the Opposition benches as to some proceedings before the Committee with regard to a portion of the correspondence which had not been laid before the House. The decision of the Committee was solemnly taken, and was unanimous that this correspondence should appear in the form of an appendix, and that the alternative plan which the Treasury correspondence contemplated would be laid before Parliament. That correspondence had been promised, but did not appear in the Report; and he trusted MR. COWPER said, that if the right hon. Gentleman would look at the bluebook, he would see it stated that the plan would be delivered as soon as it was ready. It was in the printer's hands, and it was not his fault if there had been any delay. All the correspondence referred to in the decision of the Committee had been produced at least, he was not aware of any further correspondence; but if there were such he should be ready to produce it. that before Thursday all the correspond- | the proceedings, and what steps the House ence referring to this alternative plan ought to take to possess itself of this Rewould be fully before the Committee. solution. The House had a right to know what became of the Resolution put by the Chairman of the Committee from the chair, and whether it ought not to have been recorded and reported. The House was entitled to have this Resolution before it, because it might materially bear upon the question before the House. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman in the chair would inform the House how it might deal with this very serious question; because if the House lost confidence in the solemn records of the proceedings of its Committees there would be, until this matter were cleared up, an end to all respect for their Resolutions. SIR JOHN SHELLEY rose to address the House, but was stopped by cries of Spoke, spoke." MR. SPEAKER: The Committee clerk attending the Committee is responsible for taking down everything that occurs in a Committee. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. SUPPLY. Order for Committee read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." OBSERVATIONS. MR. SCULLY said, he wished to call the attention of the House to the fact that all the rows this Session had been English rows. ["Oh!"] If the House did not interrupt him, he would not detain them long, for he had no wish to spoil sport, though he should be glad when it was all settled. He had read the evidence of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman), and the Duke of Buccleuch, and he observed that the right hon. Member for Stroud disclaimed all private interest. The Duke of Buccleuch's evidence was to the same effect, except that he said he would COMMERCIAL TREATY WITH BELGIUM. stand on his rights. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper) had insinuated that a private and confidential matter had been communicated by him in a letter to Mr. Higgins, the information contained in which had been made use of by the person into whose hands it fell for the purpose of attacking the Committee. The Mr. Higgins into whose hands the letter fell was not, however, the Mr. Higgins for whom the letter was intended. Now, it had happened to himself occasionally that letters not intended for him had fallen into his hands. He had considered that in such cases it was his business to forget everything that he had read in those letters, and to send them either to the person who wrote them or the person to whom they were addressed. He could not, therefore, understand how this letter could be made use of in the House of Commons. MR. AYRTON said, it had been stated that the Committee had deliberated on a Resolution which was not reported in the proceedings among the Resolutions considered by the Committee. He wished to ask the Speaker who was responsible for Friend the Member for Newcastle (Mr. that he could not refuse to comply with PROCEDURE OF THE IRISH COURTS. MR. BUTT said, he wished to ask the non-appearance of the Resolution in Mr. Attorney General, When it may be ADMIRAL WALCOTT seconded the Motion. LORD CLARENCE PAGET assured his hon. and gallant Friend that the Admiralty had given the most careful consideration to the case of these officers, and the more so because it had been stated that the Order in Council by which their positions were fixed was not clearly worded. COLONEL WILSON PATTEN said, he wished to ask the President of the Poor Law Board, Whether it is still his intention to proceed with the Parochial Assess-Did the hon. and gallant Gentleman supments Bill during the present Session? SIR JOHN TROLLOPE expressed a hope that the right hon. President of the Poor Law Board would fix some other day than Tuesday next for the Committee on the Poor Law Assessments Bill, inasmuch as many of the country Gentlemen would on that day be attending the Quarter Sessions. MR. C. P. VILLIERS said, that it was the intention of the Government to proceed with this Bill at a morning sitting; but as hon. Gentlemen would be engaged at the Sessions next week, he would defer the sitting to a later period. RESERVED CAPTAINS OF THE NAVY. SELECT COMMITTEE MOVED FOR. SIR JOHN HAY said, it would be in the recollection of the House that the claims of certain Reserved Officers of the Navy had been occasionally discussed, and a good case appeared to have been made out in their favour and some high legal authorities had given an opinion in their favour. The Admiralty, however, had submitted their claims to the consideration of the Law Officers of the Crown who had decided against them. He thought the gentlemen whose claims were thus decided upon were entitled to know what case had been submitted to the Law Officers, or to have a Select Committee appointed to see upon what grounds the decision to which he referred had been given. The captains themselves had submitted their case to very high legal authority, whose opinion was quite different from that of the Law Officers of the Crown. He begged, therefore, to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the case of the reserved Cap tains. pose that the Admiralty had laid an unfair statement of the case before the Law Officers? [Sir JOHN HAY said he had not made any such imputation.] He was glad that his gallant Friend did not impugn the honesty of the Admiralty. The Admiralty had given the Law Officers every information in their power; they stated the case fully, for as well as against the captains; and the Law Officers, after carefully going into the facts, gave their opinion. It was not usual to produce the opinion of the Law Officers, and he regretted that circumstance in the present instance. MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE said, as the noble Lord seemed to admit that there had been a misunderstanding, that circumstance should operate in favour of these officers. BRITISH FORCES IN INDIA. MR. BUXTON rose, pursuant to notice, to call attention to the amount of European Forces maintained in India. Ile believed, that the more any one studied Indian affairs, the more profoundly convinced he would become of the truth of a remark made by Mr. Kaye, the celebrated advocate of the East India Company, that "it would be well that it should be clearly understood how, at the bottom of all our misdoings, and all our shortcomings, is the miserable want of money;" and that it was absolutely impossible for us to have an overflowing exchequer, and avoid the disas trous evils that had arisen from the want fully he examined into the subject the more of means of the Indian Government, in cordially did he join in the opinion of those any other way except by reducing the army Indian statesmen who looked with conto the lowest possible point consistent with sternation at that proposal of the Commisthe entire security of the Empire. Being sion, and who entirely denied the necessity deeply impressed with the dire necessity for the maintenance of so vast a force. In (if India was to attain the prosperity to fact, no Commission ever made a reconwhich she was entitled) of reducing the mendation seemingly with less care and military force far below its present amount, thought, or one less borne out by the evihe brought forward the subject in 1859, dence before them. The truth was, that and again last year. He had the happi- that Commission was entirely absorbed ness now, which he had not on those occa- by what they deemed to be the important sions, of acknowledging that so far as the question as to the amalgamation of the two Sepoy force went the Indian Government armies; and although, unhappily, they made had been making very considerable ex- this recommendation, they did not take the ertions in that direction. Within the last trouble to assign any reason of any sort or two years the Native army had been re- kind for putting the amount at that point. duced from 350,000 to 130,000 men, and They put a question to some of the wit he was sure he was only expressing the nesses as to what amount of force they feeling of all who took an interest in In- would suggest; but in no single instance dian affairs in saying how deeply thankful did they require the witness to give any they were to the Government of India, ground for his suggestion. More than and especially to Colonel Balfour and his this, not only did they supply no reasons colleagues of the Military Finance Depart- whatever, either of their own or of the ment, for that immense reduction. But in witnesses examined by them on the subthe amount of European force the reduc-ject, but the conclusion they came to was tion had hitherto been comparatively small. condemned by the greater number and the Mr. Laing, indeed, in his budget, spoke of greater authority of the witnesses whom a reduction in two years from 90,000 to they examined. For instance, the Com70,000 men; but he regretted to say that missioners recommended 50,000 Eurothat statement would be extremely illusory peans for Bengal. Now, two-thirds of the if taken literally. The actual amount of witnesses examined before them, and men European force maintained on the 1st of of the highest position, recommended an last March at the cost of the Indian Go- amount considerably below that point. vernment, was 84,327 men. Of these Still more remarkably was it that the 72,796 were in India, and 11,531 were in Commission recommended a force of 15,000 the depôts at home. This, then, was the Europeans for Bombay. Now, not a fact with which they had to deal, that the single witness suggested such an amount, amount of European force maintained by and General Griffiths, the most important the Indian Government amounted to just witness on the point, only demanded a 85,000 men, and apparently there was no force of 7,000. Again, as to Madras, intention of bringing it below that amount. they recommended a force of 15,000 EuAt any rate troops to the amount of 2,423 ropeans, though Earl Canning placed the had just received orders to embark for amount at 10,000; and no single witness Calcutta, 870 for Bombay, 772 for Madras, went beyond that except a civilian of the and 224 for Kurrachee, amounting in all name of Thomas. He (Mr. Buxton) said, to 4,300 men. This did not look like a re- then, particularly that the recommendation duction of the 85,000. Now, this amount made by the Commissioners was neither exceeded by no less than 5,000 men the justified by any reasonings of their own, amount proposed to be maintained in India nor by the evidence placed before them. by the Commission which inquired into the Why then, it might be asked, should they subject of the Indian army soon after the have recommended so vast an amount mutiny. That Commission recommended of force? Never was any phenomenon a force of 80,000, and possibly, he thought, more easy of explanation. The Comthe Secretary of State might meet him by mission consisted of ten Generals and saying that he proposed in due time to re- only one civilian; and he remembered, duce the force to that amount. He earn- on a former occasion, quoting Napoleon's estly trusted that this might be done, and observation to his brother Joseph, that done soon. That, however, would not by "there never was a General who did not any means content him. The more care- cry out for a large army.' The noble VOL. CLXVII. [THIRD SERIES.] 2 P tion, which he ventured to address to him three years ago in making a Motion with reference to the reduction of the Native force, but to which he could not at that time elicit any reply. He trusted that on this occasion he would do him the honour to give as definite an answer as the case admitted of. What he wanted to know was, against what enemy this force was provided? In the answer to that lay the gist of the whole matter. Happily India was one of those countries which need not at present entertain the smallest apprehension of invasion from without. The miserable fear that Russia would have the madness to march across Asia, and would seriously endanger our Indian possessions He believed it never was entertained by more than a very few individuals, and even they, after the incidents of the Crimean war, must come to perceive that a wilder enterprise, or one whose failure could be more inevitable, could not be con Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord Stanley) was the only civilian on the commission; and if the noble Lord would get up in his place and say that he believed a force of 80,000 Europeans was necessary for the safety of the Indian Empire, why he (Mr. Buxton) acknowledged that that must have great weight with the House. But his conviction was, that the reason why the Commissioners recommended that force was simply that ten Generals were allowed to decide for the country what amount of army it should maintain, and that accordingly, without any reference to the general statesmanship of the question -without any regard to the broad and farreaching interests of India and of England, they naturally made a professional recom--that cowardly fear had passed away. mendation of an army far beyond what really was needed. Was there any human being who would doubt that under such circumstances an army would be maintained far beyond the real require ments of the country? Well, then, this having been the composition of the Com-ceived; besides which, if Russia did make mission, he maintained that the fact of their suggesting 80,000 men was almost in itself a demonstration that 80,000 men was far more than was really necessar.y But what should they say when they found that an estimate which there was so much reason, à priori, to regard as extravagant, was itself actually now exceeded, and largely exceeded, by the force which the right hon. Gentleman now maintained in India? The Secretary of State for India was not content with raising the European force to that immense amount-he was maintaining 5,000 men beyond it, and was in the very act of sending out 4,000 men as a relief to the regiments now there, instead of bringing them home without sup-in all 215,000, was intended for the proplying their place till that point was reached. Well, then, finding that neither the witnesses examined by the Commissioners, nor the Commissioners themselves, afforded any ground whatever for a judgment on this question, and entirely denying the wisdom of allowing ten Generals to decide for a country what amount of army it ought to maintain, they were driven to examine for themselves into the point; and he could truly say that he had spared no pains and research and thought to arrive at an answer to this question, whether so great a force was really necessary for the security and maintenance of our Indian empire. And here he would put to the Secretary of State, in the most definite way he could, a ques such an attempt, we could send troops to oppose her with infinitely more rapidity than she could march them thither over land. No one dreamt that Persia, or any of our other neighbours, would attempt to assail us, or at any rate would attempt it in such strength as to require us to be for ever keeping up so vast a force to guard against such a contingency. Again, should war unhappily arise between England and any other country, we could then, if necessary, send troops to India in time to protect that country against any assaults from them. In short, they might entirely dismiss the idea that this army of 85,000 Europeans and 130,000 Natives, tection of India against a foreign foe. The only object of it was to preserve order, to prevent any uprising against our own rule. Now, let the House seriously examine whether so great a force was necessary for that purpose. They must remember that for 100 years our empire in India was not only maintained, but was constantly pushed further and further by an army the European portion of which never, he believed, numbered 50,000 men, and was often much below that mark. We had infinitely less cause now than we had formerly to apprehend war with the particular rulers within the boundaries of India, who formerly were our dangerous neighbours, but who had since either become our peaceable subjects, or who |