by carrying the fortifications to a greater distance. The obvious question for the Government to consider was, shall Portsmouth and Plymouth be defended? The Government came to a decision which I think every Government would come to that the great arsenals ought to be defended. But that is not scattering our defences over the country. Now, as to the Spithead forts. When these forts were first proposed, it was intended that the superstructure above the foundations should be granite, or granite armed with ironfor the Americans had even then embrasures of stone faced with iron. But all that was considered desirable to be done then was to make the foundations. When the great question of the necessity of building iron-cased ships came under the notice of the Government, it appeared to us, that if any works were to be suspended for a time, and thus give Parliament another opportunity of again considering the subject, it was advisable to suspend these works. The vessels which the Government are building are, undoubtedly, of various kinds, and necessarily must be so, because we do not know exactly what sort of vessel will be the best, and the only way to enable the public and Parliament, and naval officers, to judge which is the best kind of vessel, is to have some of various kinds. We are not largely embarked in any one kind of vessel. The most we have are those to which the noble Earl has referred-wooden vessels which we propose to plate with iron, and the first of which was, I believe, launched at Pembroke this very day. They will not be of a very expensive character, but I believe they will be effective vessels; and when we have one or two other kinds, we shall be able to form an opinion. I hope, therefore, that your Lordships will not be carried away by the statements which my noble Friend has somewhat hastily and carelessly made. The noble Earl quoted the Earl of Dundonald; but Lord Dundonald found his most awkward enemy in a Martello tower. Forts have been found most effective in many cases. At the present time no iron ship could stand long against iron forts. Any one who has seen as I have, the results of firing at iron plates will know that after a very few shots the plates are fractured, the bolts of the plates are shaken, and the plates come bodily off the ship, which in such a case would be in a worse position than a wooden vessel. We must observe all these things

in experiments, for at present we really know nothing practically of this matter in actual war. We hear one day about the Merrimac and other iron-cased ships being impervious to shot or shell, and only the other day I saw a letter from a naval officer in America in which he stated that the Galena iron gunboat went up to a fort, and that the shot and shell went through her as if she were a wooden ship. You can have opinions any way; and as for plans, why the opinions of inventors are such that one will tell you it is possible to destroy a fleet in Cherbourg by operations conducted on the Isle of Wight, and will wonder how it is the Government are so blind as not to see the feasibility of the plan. Many of the inventions submitted to us are ingenious, and some are ridiculous beyond conception; but all have to be considered and are considered. My noble Friend says he hopes that no new works will be sanctioned; but where the fortifications on one side are complete, would he advise us to defend one side but not the other-I think we ought prudently to complete works in progress, and that we should do so according to the newest inventions; but in respect to new works, by which I mean entirely new fortifications, the House of Commons will properly exercise caution by calling upon the Government to give reasons for any new work that may be proposed.

THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: My Lords, I am sorry to prolong this discussion, but there are one or two observations of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) upon military points which I feel bound to notice. With respect to the policy of the Government, it is not for me to defend it; but I must say, as a Member of this House, that I entirely agree with the course that has been adopted by the Government upon this occasion. I think, under all the circumstances, and considering the difficulties in which this question from various causes has been involved, that they have come to a wise conclusion in suspending-not giving up, but suspending-for a period the construction of the forts at Spithead, and going on as far as they are able with the other works that have been commenced, and are now in various stages of progress. The noble Earl has alluded to the works at Portsdown Hill. I think that any military man who considers the position of Portsmouth will come to the conclusion, that unless Portsdown is occupied, Portsmouth is entirely at the mercy of anybody

who can occupy that position. Well, if | late Duke of Wellington, who surely may Portsdown is to be occupied at all, is it to be fairly quoted on such a matter, always be occupied by works or by an army? I said that Dover was one of the most imsay by works, because by that means you portant points on our coast, and that its will require a much smaller force, in order defence ought to come within the system to hold the position effectually, than if of defences for the whole country. The you occupied it by an army. If Ports- reason the Duke of Wellington gave for mouth is to be defended, and it is admit- that opinion was this-that the works at ted that Portsdown is the key of the posi- Dover were not at all meant for defending tion of Portsmouth, as I hold it to be the harbour. There is no harbour to deand I believe the same will be found to fend. Dover is an intrenched camp, the be the opinion of most military men-then only intrenched camp that we have along it would require a much larger force to that whole line of coast, and a very vuldefend Portsdown without forts than to nerable line it is. It is the only position defend it with troops and forts combined. in which you can place military stores and The objection as to shutting up your troops military assistance of every kind for the there is quite untenable. Who are the army that may be defending your shores. troops that would be so shut up? Why, There you have a point d'appui for a the raw levies of the country. And pray great stretch of coast which is very vulremember, if we were to have an invasion nerable. And, if you have an available and recollect that the whole question army of 30,000 or 40,000 men between turns upon that, because if it is to be Portsmouth and Dover, I contend that no assumed that there can be no invasion, hostile army, even if it effected a landing, then I agree that these works are useless could with safety or security move upon -but if you have before you the possi- London. I maintain, then, that the debility of an invasion, there is no doubt that fence of your capital lies very much in it would come upon us suddenly, unex- your occupying and strengthening Dover pectedly, and at very short notice. Then and Portsdown Hill. Recollect, also, that the levies you would have to aid your re- on the whole of that line of coast there gular troops would be so raw and inex- are very few harbours indeed, and none perienced in the first instance, so far as at all that can be entered without diffithe field is concerned, that they would be culty. But at Dover you have a magnivaluable to you only when in forts-it ficent landing-stage, where, under fawould only be when they had the protec- vourable circumstances, the largest linetion and support of such works that you of-battle ships can run alongside, and could make them generally useful. The land men and stores. Only consider argument which has been used in another what a benefit that would be to an place, that it was derogatory to the Eng-invading enemy. And, remember, it is lish soldier to fight behind walls, is the most extraordinary I can conceive. It is the first time in my life I ever heard that it was derogatory to us to use the resources of science and art in order to make a small force more available; and yet, I regret to say, such an argument came from a military man. Now, let us see what we require at Portsmouth. We require for occupying those forts the Militia and such of the Volunteers as may not be thought sufficiently drilled and trained to take the field. You will then have an available force of, say, 10,000 or 20,000 men who can issue from Portsmouth and fall upon the flank or rear of any enemy who may have landed on your shores and be advancing on London. But Portsdown Hill does not stand alone. There is Dover, which my noble Friend says he has never heard a reason for fortifying. My noble Friend will recollect that the

situated at the very point of your coast which is at the shortest distance from the nearest Power which could ever land on your shores as an enemy. I trust, my Lords, that that may never occur; but still it may occur at some time or other, and surely it would be very injudicious for us to do what the noble Earl spoke ofnamely, vote £5,000 or £6,000 to be spent in blowing up the works at Dover. I should extremely regret to see any such proposal made either in this or the other House of Parliament. I believe that what the Government have done at Dover has been wisely done, and will be valuable for the general defence of the country. My Lords, we cannot disguise from ourselves the fact that we have a very small army to defend a very great empire; that only a very small force can at any time be at home; and that we must mainly rely upon the raw levies which we can bring out at

not entered as fully into military details
as may be desirable. I do not pretend
that my opinion is as valuable as that of
many others, but still it is the same as
was entertained by the Duke of Wellington,
and not entertained by that great man
alone, but as was mentioned elsewhere
the other day by a right hon. Friend of
mine-by Napoleon the First also. The
evidence of a gallant and distinguished
Friend of mine has been quoted against
the works in progress at Portsdown Hill;
I refer to Sir John Burgoyne. But in the
blue-book which contains the questions put
by General Peel to a certain number of
officers as to the effect of the new rifled
gun upon works, Sir John Burgoyne states
that he considers Portsdown Hill ought to
be occupied-that it ought to be occupied
by ten works, and that there should be
three works between Portsdown Hill and
Gosport alone; whereas the present pro-
posal of the Government is that there
should be six works for the whole of that
line. And what does Sir John Burgoyne
say in his evidence before the Defence
Commissioners? Why, that if he had the
men to defend the works at Portsdown
Hill, he should be all for occupying them;
but that he does not recommend the con-
struction of those works at present, and he
gives, as his sole reason for that recom-
mendation, "the want of men to defend
them." He adds, that if it were in France,
he would recommend them to be occupied,
but in England he would not. That ap-
pears to me a singular argument, and I
refer to it because the opinion of Sir
John Burgoyne has been much relied upon
by those who are opposed to these works.
My Lords, at this period of the evening I
will not enter further into this subject, and
I have only to thank your Lordships for
your kindness in listening to me.
Motion agreed to.

any period for the support of that nucleus | Lords who have spoken have, perhaps, of regular troops. Let us, then, put those raw levies in a position where they can be made available. The only position where for a long time they can be made available is within works, where they will get confidence and efficiency. It is said that we have not artillery force to man these works. I can assure your Lordships that we have a very valuable body of artillery; that the Militia artillery have, within a short time, made very considerable progress, and we have a great many volunteer gunners; and, with a sprinkling of the ordinary artillery of the army, they would make most excellent gunners for manning all these works. If, on the other hand, you were to put those men in the field without the assistance of works, you would certainly have a poor chance of making them available. But place them in forts and they would prove most useful, and that, too, without in the smallest degree interfering with the strength or efficiency of your field artillery. Let me turn for a moment to another point. I have stated that you might have an available army of 40,000 men between Dover and Portsdown, to act against any enemy landing in this country. It may be said, that if you were to scatter your troops like that, you would have no force for the defence of London. I deny that. You have great facilities for moving troops by railway. The other morning 20,000 men were taken down to Brighton by rail in the course of four or five hours, and that too, recollect, in addition to the whole of the ordinary traffic of the country. Indeed, not only was the ordinary traffic carried besides the volunteers, but an extraordinary traffic also; because special trains ran at the same time to convey the public to see the review; and all this was done with great facility and regularity. In the event of an invasion, of course the whole transport by railway would be taken up by the Government. The troops could come up by two lines of rail from Portsmouth, and two railroads would also bring them up from Dover. The field artillery and the cavalry might be concentrated at Reigate, or some other suitable place. The force, then, in these detached forts would form one army under one command, and would be regarded as detached for the purpose of hanging upon the flanks of the enemy. I have referred, my Lords, to these military points because I thought they had not been sufficiently considered to-night, and because noble

House adjourned at a quarter past Eight o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, June 26, 1862.

THE CAMEL CORPS IN INDIA.
QUESTION.

GENERAL BUCKLEY said, he would beg to ask the Secretary of State for War,

Why the Officers and Men of the Rifle | spondence upon the subject; and, if so, Brigade who composed the Camel Corps whether there will be any objection to its in India, commanded by Colonel Ross production? during the late Mutiny (having received a medal and clasps for services with Sir Hugh Rose's force in Central India), have not received a share of Prize Money?

hour on Tuesday night, he wished to state that it was his intention to furnish the fullest information on the subject of works and fortifications, either with regard to past expenditure or with reference to future. He would take care to lay on the table of the House to-morrow an additional account to the one which had been circulated that morning, which he hoped might be in the hands of hon. Members by Monday next.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT said, it would be satisfactory to the House if the right hon. Gentleman stated on what day it was his intention to move the second reading of the Fortifications Bill.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, he proposed

arms, ammunition, and military stores not | ference to a remark which fell from the required for the service of Her Majesty right hon. Gentleman the Member for might be sold to the Chinese Government Wiltshire (Mr. S. Estcourt), at a late at cost price. With regard to the other part of the Question, he begged to state that the hon. and gallant Gentleman must have been misinformed upon the subject to which it referred. When the allies took possession of Canton, they instituted a supervision of the gaols, and all persons imprisoned on account of any connection with the allies were immediately released. Criminals were detained in the gaols, and the administration of criminal justice was left as far as possible to the Chinese authorities, the British authorities watching over those who were condemned, to see that they were not tortured or subjected to undue punishment. He had been informed by Sir Harry Parkes, that during the time the allies occupied Canton, to do so on Monday next. between thirty and forty persons were executed, and these were well-known criminals. Sir Harry Parkes had also informed him that he had made inquiries as to the mother of the Tacping chief, and had ascertained that she was left in charge of a large establishment of some 3,000 ladies, which it appeared he kept up. His mother was placed over them, to keep the ladies in order, and she appeared to be quite safe at Nankin. There were no Taeping women confined in the gaols of Canton. There were some women belong-end of the clause :ing to the Taepings, who were kept within the precincts of the gaol because there was no other place where they could be lodged, but they were not actually prisoners; they were well fed and clothed; and if they had been turned out, the probability was that they would have starved. They had been treated with the greatest humanity, and it was altogether untrue that they had been handed over to the Chinese authorities.

FORTIFICATIONS BILL.

NOTICE. OBSERVATIONS.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE said, he wished to give notice that in Committee on the Fortifications Bill he should move the insertion of a clause or clauses to restrict the application of money which might be raised under the authority of the Act to the completion of such contracts for works as were already made, or such as might hereafter be made, subject to the previous approval of Parliament.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS said, that in re

TRANSFER OF LAND BILL.

[BILL NO. 101.] COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
House in Committee.

Clauses 14 and 15 agreed to.

Clause 16 (As to Exception, &c., in Record of Title).

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL said, he wished to add the following proviso at the

:

"And if there shall be any disputed question of boundary between the applicants and any proprietor of adjoining land, which shall not have been previously determined by any competent authoof them, to object in writing to the determination rity, it shall be competent for the parties, or either of such question by the registrar or by a judge of the Court of Chancery under this Act; and if any such objection shall be made, the registrar shall specify upon the record of title the existence of such disputed question of boundary, and that the registration is made subject thereto."

MR. WALPOLE said, the Amendment of the hon. and learned Gentleman would be a great improvement on the clause, but he had still some apprehension that it would not meet all the difficulties of the case. He feared that the result of registering boundaries would be to force the surrounding proprietors to employ solicitors to see how far their title might be affected by the party desiring to have his estate registered. The principle in all cases of that kind ought to be to avoid throwing upon parties other than those who wanted to have the benefit of the Act any legal or professional expense.

THE SOLICITOR GENERAL observed,