The Commissioners had given it as their | ment, however, had taken no steps for opinion that a dockyard, or ships lying in the establishment of another arsenal; and harbour, would not be safe from bombard- knowing how expensive it would be, he ment at a less distance than 8,000 yards. could hardly blame them for that resolve. If that were so, it seemed to follow that But did not this furnish a strong argument iron-cased vessels might lie off at such a in favour of floating defences, which distance as not to be injured even by the could be made available at any point guns which the Commissioners anticipated of the coast? The subject of ironwould in course of time be made, and that cased ships was dealt with by the Comthey might still destroy wooden vessels missioners in 1860, but the question was lying within 6,000 yards of the outer then on a very different footing to what it works of the harbour. Of the eminent was now. At that time the French had professional men who had given evidence but one iron-cased ship, and we had but upon this question, Sir John Hay, Chair- one building. Doubts were entertained man of the Iron-plate Committee, was of as to those vessels, and the highest auopinion that a large fleet of iron-cased thority in gunnery, the late Sir Howard ships was better than fixed fortifications, Douglas, gave a decidedly adverse opinion. as they were available for offensive as well Some authorities believed that the introas defensive purposes, and thus possessed duction of these iron-plated vessels ena double power. He was asked whether dangered our maritime supremacy; but it was possible to insure the fleet being at he thought that anything which tended to Portsmouth on the very day when that increase our defensive power must be adplace was attacked; to which he replied vantageous to a country which had a prethat the fact that preparations were going ponderating power at sea. If, however, on was always known beforehand, and that our superiority in iron-plated ships was to the proper course in such a case would be be maintained, it could only be done by a to attack the French fleet while it was great expenditure, for every country was preparing. But, even supposing that the building such ships, not only France and invading fleet eluded our own, they had Russia, but even Turkey. We should still to be landed, and it was a great mis- therefore have a sharp competition to entake to suppose that this operation was an counter, and we must maintain a fleet caleasy or a rapid one. On this point we had culated in relation to all these countries. some experience eight years ago, when we With respect to the proposed works for threw an invading force on the shores of defence, he reminded their Lordships that the Crimea; and though we then had they were in different stages of progress. command of the sea, and though the Upon some there had been large expendiweather was fine and we had every facility; ture, while upon others little had been exyet, with all these advantages, it took the pended, and with respect to several no better part of two days to land 30,000 contracts had been entered into. Under men. As to the difficulty of getting toge- these circumstances he thought the Gother our ships in case of attack upon a vernment ought to give Parliament a decertain point, Captain Hewlett, of the tailed statement of those works, so as to Excellent, said that you could collect them afford them an opportunity of properly by telegraph in the course of ten or twelve considering the question. For instance, hours. The question was not whether our at Milford Haven there were two works; dockyards should be defended, but how upon one there had been considerable exthey should be defended-whether by fixed penditure, while upon the other there had defences, which would absorb a large been none. It was placing Parliament in number of men to garrison them, or a false position to tell them that they must whether by floating fortresses, which could either agree to or reject the works as a be called into requisition at any point in a whole, and that if they rejected any works very short time. Woolwich Arsenal had for which no expenditure had been incurred, an important bearing upon this part of they would incur responsibility of rejectthe question. The Commissioners ap- ing those works upon which there had peared to think that Woolwich was so already been a considerable outlay. That accessible that you could not possibly was an argument which he could hardly defend it by any scheme of fixed fortifi- have expected to come from the Governcations; and, accordingly, they recom- ment, especially when he considered what mended the establishment of an inland had been their course in respect of the arsenal less easily accessible. The Govern- Spithead forts. Those forts were recom

"Whether any Lands have been purchased for the Works in each District, and the Cost of such Land:

into for the Execution of the Works in each "Whether any Contracts have been entered District respectively, and the Amount expended thereon to the 31st Day of March, 1862 :

"And, of the Total Amount expended to the 31st Day of March, 1862, chargeable to the Defence Loan for Officers, Surveyors, Clerks, Draughtsmen, and others employed in designing and superintending the Works:

previously existing Works forms Part of the Plan "Showing also whether the Demolition of any of Defence now decided upon; and, if so, the Date of the Construction of any Works to be demolished, together with their Cost, if erected within the last Twenty Years."

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON said, he

had listened with great interest to the able speech of the noble Earl, who had addressed the House in a spirit and tone worthy of the serious question with which he was dealing. The main argument of his noble Friend appeared to rest upon his opinion that the result of recent changes and improvements in iron-cased ships would be to render this country almost unassailable by sea, and he objected to works of defence on land on that

{LORDS} mended by the Commissioners to whom [ the question was twice referred, but nevertheless the Government had decided not to proceed with those works at present. It was sometimes said, as an argument in favour of proceeding with the projected works, that large expenditure had already been incurred upon them, and that if no further steps were taken, the money already spent would be entirely lost. That might be admitted within certain limits, but it did not apply to those cases in which there had been no outlay and no contracts. The works at Chatham, the north-east defences of Plymouth, and at Milford Haven, involved an outlay of £900,000, and therefore the question was one of great importance. The prudence of proceeding with works upon which money had already been expended, was a question of degree, because they should look not only at the amount expended, but also to the probable amount that would be required to complete them, and the benefits that would be derived from them when completed. If they were simply to go on with all works upon which there had been any expenditure, there was no limit to the expense. As an illustration, he would refer to the case of Alderney, where certain works were begun, which at the time were expected to be of great benefit, and the cost of which would be comparatively small. But year after year it appeared that the probable advantage of those works was diminishing, while the cost was increasing; and now the country was invited to expend two millions, because if those works were left unfinished, they would be positively injurious to us. He did not, by the remarks he had made, intend to cast any rested part of his argument in support of undue blame upon the Government, because Parliament was equally responsible his view on an hypothesis which he afterfor what had been done. Parliament had wards admitted to be a great over-statesanctioned the works which the Government of the actual case. He began by ment had suggested to protect the dock- assuming that we had vessels which were yards. That was a wise measure at the invulnerable-a state of things at which time it was adopted, but since then there we had not at all arrived yet; and he had been a change of circumstances, which then asked how it would be possible for rendered it expedient to modify the origi- any Power, intending to invade this counnal plan. The noble Earl concluded by try, to do so without first collecting a large moving an Address fornumber of transports for the purpose at some point on his own coast, at which point, owing to the extended range of the new ordnance, we could bombard them from sea. According to his noble Friend, all that we should have to do would be to send forth our fleet of iron-plated and invulnerable ships, to attack and destroy the transports so collected by an enemy. Now,

"Returns showing how the Loan which Par

liament authorized to be raised for Expenditure on the Defences of the Kingdom has been appropriated and expended down to the 31st Day of March, 1862 :

Showing, under the Head of each Station, the Names of the Works contemplated in each District, and their estimated Cost exclusive of Artillery Armament:

ground. His noble Friend, in objecting

to the scheme of the Defence Commis

sioners, said, he did not do so from any want of interest in the defence of the country, or from any belief that it was an unimportant subject, but because, in had now become so improbable, that it his judgment, an invasion of our shores was only to the sea defences of our arsenals, and their protection from a bombardment of short duration, that we ought to direct our attention. His noble Friend

he conceived that it was by no means ne-enable us safely to neglect our whole land cessary that the transports which an enemy defences. Reference had been made by might prepare for invading this country his noble Friend to the late experiments should be accumulated by him in an ex- at Shoeburyness. It was perfectly true posed position, which would render them that every person present at those expeliable to bombardment by sea. They would riments on the occasion in question, shared rather be got together higher up the estu- the belief that the shot from the Armaries or rivers of the hostile Power, where strong gun had gone entirely through a they would probably have the shelter of target of the side of the Warrior; but fortifications, or be protected by a fleet what really happened then was, that the similar to that which might be brought 150-pound shot, at 200 yards, pierced against them. No doubt the attacking the outside plate of 4 inches thick, enparty had a great advantage; he had the tirely went through the 18 inches of teak power of choosing where he would prepare inside, and then bent the skin of the ship, his transports, and of concentrating the though it did not entirely pierce it. His whole of his iron-plated fleet on one spot, noble Friend had quoted the evidence of so as to be ready to defend them. On Captain Coles, to the effect that that the other hand, if we were to concentrate officer could make vessels for harbour our iron-plated fleet in order to make a defence that would carry plates nine dash against the enemy's transports, we inches thick. But it should be rememshould leave our coasts defenceless-un-bered that the vessels there referred less, indeed, we were to maintain an enormouse force of floating defences, which were not only exceedingly costly at the outset, but which required constant repairs -a source of annual expense from which, considered broadly, fortifications might be said to be entirely free. But what if, by some of those many accidents which were not improbable since the invention of steam, an enemy's fleet and transports reached our shores without being prevented from crossing by the operations of our iron-plated ships? In the first place, time would be required for the concentration of our iron-plated squadron, and, in the next place, the enemy's transports would be covered by his own ironplated ships; the two fleets might engage each other, and under cover of that engagement the invading troops might be landed. His noble Friend had referred to the authority of Sir John Hay to show that we should always have warning when an attack was to be made upon us. True, we might know beforehand that a hostilo fleet was being collected at Cherbourg, for instance; but how were we to know that it would make an attack upon Portsmouth? Might the enemy not make a feint upon Torbay, while the real attack was directed to the mouth of the Thames? While admitting that the Go-rence to the concluding observations of vernment were bound to devote the utmost attention to the changes going on in respect both to artillery and iron-plated vessels, yet he thought it would be a very dangerous error to suppose that the invention of iron-plated vessels gave us any such security from invasion as would

to were not sea-going vessels. His noble Friend had also cited the opinion of Admiral Robinson on this point. Now, it should be borne in mind that Admiral Robinson stated in his evidence that the manufacture of a ten-inch iron plate that would at all stand shot had never been effected, and was still very problematical; and that, indeed, we had not yet got an iron plate 5 inches thick that would resist shot. His noble Friend alluded to the announcement made in another place, that it was not the intention of the Government to take any further steps at the present moment in regard to the provision of a central arsenal. Her Majesty's Government had determined originally to take measures for the establishment of a central arsenal, because there were various reasons for moving the stores from Woolwich; but they thought it better for the present to suspend that operation, without having abandoned the idea. Danger to Woolwich might arise not only from attacks of ships in the river, but from an invading army, if not guarded against by fortifications, such as the lines of Chatham and other defences, which were intended to enable us to place a collsiderable force on the flank of an enemy marching towards Woolwich. With refe

his noble Friend, the Government were ready to give the fullest information as to their intentions and the details of the works they might propose. He believed his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would be prepared to lay any Returns on the table of the other House

which might be necessary to give complete | EARL GREY: My Lords, the House information on the subject. He believed is indebted to my noble Friend for having

tends to check the increase of its general resources, necessarily tends to diminish its real power; and, consequently, to make it less capable of defending itself against an enemy when danger arises. If this is true

quently shown themselves to be-with two nations, moreover, in such close proximity, a rupture is possible; and that, consequently, while it is desirable we should remain on the best terms with our powerful neighbour, and while we have every and I am persuaded none of your Lordreason at present to believe that such is ships will dispute its truth-it is clear that the desire of France also, still we must undue naval and military expenditure really all agree that measures of precaution are diminishes the security and strength of the not superfluous. But the real question is, nation; and, that being so, I ask any man are the measures which are proposed to who has carefully considered the subject, Parliament and the country really calcu- who has calmly and dispassionately looked lated to increase our strength, or are they at our present prospects, whether the enorlikely to afford an advantage proportionate mous amount of our naval and military exto the enormous cost which they must penditure does not appear to him calculated entail upon us? I firmly believe, that if to excite considerable uneasiness. Can we we embark in the course which is recom- doubt that the amount of that expenditure mended to us, an amount of money far has now risen to such a height that it must larger than the largest estimate which has seriously interfere with the power of accuyet been publicly avowed will not cover mulation on the part of the nation; that it the whole expense which must be incur- must tend to check the rapidity of that red. I have lived too long, I have sat progress by which of late years our retoo many years in Parliament, not tho- sources and our wealth have been increasroughly to distrust all estimates of this ed; and that it tends to place our finances kind. I can remember the celebrated case in a situation which would be found exof the Rideau Canal, in which a moderate tremely dangerous on the breaking-out of grant of £100,000 ran up to £1,500,000 war? Apart, therefore, from all consideror £2,000,000. I can remember the re- ations of the general wealth of the councent case of Alderney; I can remember try, I say it is the bounden duty of Parlia many other cases of the same kind; but ment-especially at a time like the present, I can remember none-no, not one-in when such distress is afflicting a large porwhich a great scheme of this description tion of the kingdom-and when, I fear, has been begun, and the expense originally we are but at the beginning of that distress, proposed has not been far exceeded. The which, if it continues, must necessarily question of expense with respect to the affect every branch of our industry and security of the country is very material. every interest within the nation-to take It was a saying of old times that money care that we do not allow expenditure to be afforded the sinews of war. If that was unduly increased for naval and military true formerly, how infinitely more true it purposes. Taking that principle for our is in our own times, when each succeeding guidance, I wish to ask your Lordships year brings to our notice some new agent whether the works which are now in proof destruction of fearful power and of gress, or in contemplation, are likely to enormous cost, so that war really be- afford an advantage proportionate to their comes every day more and more expen- enormous cost. My noble Friend who sive. Looking at the manner in which in- commenced the debate (the Earl of Airlie) ventions are increasing, and considering made an apology as a civilian for expresstheir direct tendency to augment the cost- ing an opinion upon these points. I am liness of war, we may be certain that in quite aware that it is our duty as non-profuture, infinitely more than heretofore, fessional men to form our judgment with the power of every country will depend, caution; but I by no means admit that not merely upon the number and bravery of these are questions upon which men of its people, but also upon its resources, the ordinary sense and intelligence, even amount of its accumulated capital, the pro- though they do not happen to be profesgress of the arts of industry, and the sional soldiers or sailors, may not form a means which it possesses of availing itself very fair opinion; and I think so the more in the shortest possible time of all those because we have the assistance of a full appliances which science is daily bringing discussion on the part of professional to light to aid the purposes of war. There- gentlemen. We have not only the Defence fore whatever tends to check the progress Commissioners on one side, but we have and the wealth of the country, whatever very distinguished officers on the other,