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prove but too true. The catholics felt they had lent their support to the union, and that they were entitled for that support to have their claims a:tended to. But they are now told those claims will.no: be even discussed.
Mr. Ponsonby contrasted the tone of the honourable gentleman who had just sat down, with that which he maintained when similar objections, as to time, circumstances, and the discontent of the subjects to which it applied, were advanced against his measure for the abolition of the slave trade. "What the bonourable gentleman offered to refute such objections, was equally forcible on this occasion. From this the right honourable gentleman proceeded to comment upon the obseryations of Mr. Canning, which he conceived to betray an indifference to the opinions of Burke, Pitt, and Fox, who were, however, authorities quite bencath the consideration of the minister for foreign affairs. As to the danger to be apprehended from the pope's connection with the Irish catho. lics, arising out of the dominion of Buonaparte over that personage, he appealed to the common sense of the house, whether any thing was to be apprehended from that quarter, What motive could the pope have to promote the 'wishes of Buonaparte? De certainly could not be prompted by, affection or interest to do so. But in order to remove all apprehensions on that head, he was authorized to say that the catholic clergy were willing, in the event of the measure before the hou-e being acceded to, that the appointment of every catholic bisbop in Ire. land should in future finally vest in the king. To prove that the Irish protestants had ceased to feel any alarm at the idea of catholic emancipation, and that they had rather become friendly to the measure, the right honourable gentleman referred to a letter from Mr. Plunkett, the late attorney-general of that country, which letter was dictated by the resolutions of several county mectings. Mr. Plunkett mentioned in his letter, that he had no doubt nine-tenths of the protestants would poll in favour of the measure of catholic emancipation. With regard to what took place upon this subject during the administration of the duke of Bedford, he was ready to state, as a member of that administration, that when the catholics brought forward their claims, reference was had to the governinent hcre, in consequence of which reference, the catholics were asked not to press their claims to the ex
tent originally mentioned. But as to the micasure proposed by the late administration, he was prepared to aftirm, that it would have given great satisfaction to the catholics. The right bonourable gentleman argued in favour of the frequent discussion oi this qu: stion, as the sutest way to produce the triumph of reason over prejudice and error.
Lord Castlereach in explanation averred, that upon the resignation of Mr. Pitt, and the government of which he formed a part, in 1811, no pledge or condition was entered into which could in any degree fester the conduct of the several members of that government, with regard to the catholic question.
General Archdale spoke against the measure of emancipation as adverse to the constitution, and to the sentiment of such Irish protestants as he was acquainted with.
Mr. Ilindham contradicted the statement of lord Cas. tlereagh, respecting the motives wbich urged Mr. Pitt and bis colleagues to abdicate the government in 1801.
Mr. Yorke expressed a particular wish to know upon what authority the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) grounded bis statement relative to the disposition of the Irish clergy as to the future appointment of their bishops; as that circuinstance, if well-founded, must serve to remove a principal objection to the catholic claims?
Mr. Ponsonby answered, that he made the statement upon the authority of Dr. Milner, who was a catholic bishop in this country, and who was authorised by the catholic bishops of Ireland to mahe the proposition, in case the measure of catholic cmancipation should be acceded to. The proposition was this: that the person to be nominated to any vacant bishopric should be submit. ted for the king's approbation; and that if the approbil tion were refused, another person should be proposer!, and so on in succession, until his majesty's approbation should be obtained, so that the appointment should finally Test with the king.
The Chancellor of the Erchequer deprecated any intemperance or party fceling on this oecasion, and complia niented the manner in which the que tion had been trcated by the right honourable mover. Although he was ad. verse to this proposition, he begged to be understood as anxious for any measure that should serve to content and conciliate the Irish. This proposition did not appear to him likely to produce that effect, and therefore he should oppose it. It might serve to tranquillize the catholics, and even that was problematical ; but it would create discontent among the protestants and dissenters. There was a petition on the table that justified that apprehension, he meant the petition from the corporation of Lublin (a laugh.) The right honourable gentleman desirtd to record his sentiments, that notwithstanding his present objections to the claims of the catholics, he should not conceive himself precluded from supporting these claims under different circumstances; in the event, for instance, of a change taking place in the catholic religion itself.
Mr. Whitbread thought that at so late an hour the debate should be adjourned.
Mr. C. Hutchinson concurred in ihis opinion. But the cry of Go on! becoming general,
Mr. Whitbread proceeded to discuss the question. He remarked upon the apparent resolution of the gentlemen on the treasury bench to avoid discussion altogether; which resolution was violated only in consequence of the wish of the secretary for foreign affairs, that he should not appear as a mere unit in the train of lord Hawkesbury. The honourable gentleman exhorted parliament to concede in due time to the claims of the people; to imitate the policy of the wise Elizabeth rather than that of the weak and wavering Charles, whose concessions were always too late, and whose impulitic attention to public opi. nion at length led him to the block.
Mr. Hutchinson rose amidst a general call for the question. After some pause he observed, that that very cry was in i'selt a suflicient reason for his making the propo. sision which he was then about to submit to the house. In the exhausted state in which gentlemen must be, when they could not bear to hear a man who wils anxious to deliver his sentiments, it was not much to ask of the house to adjourn the debate; especially as it was to be observed that there were many gentlemen of considerably greater weight than he, who had not had an opportunity of speaking on the subject. Ile therefore proposed that the further debute should be a journed tillto-morrow.
Upon this question being put from the chair,
General Matthew endeavoured to obtain a hearing amidst a general buz, and call from some for the question, and from others to proceed with the debate. " Although he observed a smile upon the countenance of a noble lord opposite (Castlerrag!:), it ill became a person in his official situation, to treat with so much levity, a question in which the interest of so large a portion of his Irish fellow-subjects were most deeply involved. But he had some consolation in the reflection, that the noble lord was not a representative of the Irish people. No, he had been rejected in that part of Ireland where he was best known; and he did not believe, in fact, that there was a county, borough, or individual in Ireland, that would not reject the service of the noble lord.. He most cordially seconded the motion.
Colonel Martin also spoke for the adjournment. A division then took place, and the numbers were : For the adjournment
118 Against it
180 The house then proceeded with the debate, but the gallery was not re-opened. On a division upon tlie main question there were, For•the committee
128 Against it
LIST OF THE MINORITY ON THE SECOND DIVISION.
Brown, Right Hon. D.
Burton, Hon. F. N.
Butler, Hon. C. H.
Butler, Hon. James
Cavendish, Lord G. H. Lyt:leton, Hon. W. H.
Mahon, Hon. S.
Mahon, Viscount Creevey, Thomas
Martin, Henry Daly, Right Hon. D. B.
Martin, Richard Daly, James
Mathew, Hon. Gen. Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Mawle, Hon. W. Ramsay Dundas, Ilon. R. L.
Meade, Hon. Col.
Montgomery, Col. Fitzpatrick, Rt. Hon. Gen. Moore, Peter Foley, Thomas
Morreb, Viscount Folkstone, Viscount
Moseley, Sir Os. Bart. Freemantle, W. II.
Mostun, Sir T. Bart. French, Arthur
Neville, Hon. R. Gower, Earl
Nugent, Sir G. Bart.' Grattan, Right Hon. H. O'Brien, Sir E. Bart. Greenhill, R.
Odell, William Greenhough, G. B.
Ord, Williain Grenfell, P.
Ossulstone, Lord Grenville, Right Hon. T. Parnell, Henry Jlerbert, Henry A.
Pelham, Hon. C. Anderson Hibbert, George
Pelham, Hon. G. Hippisley, Sir J. C. Petty, Lord Henry Horner, Francis
Philipps, R. Mansel Howard, Colonel
Piggoti, Sir Arthur Iloward, Hon. W.
Ponsonby, Right Hon. G. Hughes, W. L.
Ponsonby, Hon. G. Hume, William Hoare Ponsonby. Hon. F. Hurst, Robert
Romilly, Sir S.
Russell, Lord William Latouche, David
St. Aubyn, Sir J. Bart. Latouche, R.
Salusbury, Sir R. Bart. · Laurence, F.
Savage, Francis Leach, John
Scudamore, R. P. Lloyd, Sir E. P. Bt.