those who supported this as a colonial measure, or with those who defended it on the score of existing or apprehended scarcity; but with a view to the great national interests which it was calculated to promote.

Mr. Ponsonby declared that he never had taken up the present as a party question; and had no communication upon the subject with those with whom he was accustomed to act, out of the house of commons. He repeated what he had said on a former evening, that the resolutions were a virtual and effective violation of the articles of the Irish union. The right honourable gentleman (Mr. Rose) indeed, seemed to hold this argument extremely cheap, when he said that these articles ought not to be violated merely upon the grounds of convenience. But Mr. Ponsonby contended that a sacred and solemn compact ought not to be violated in any circumstances, nor under any pretence whatever. He opposed the measure as a direct interference with the agricultural system of the country, which never ought to be done but in cases of extreme urgency. This interference would be attended with much mischief. The farmer had three markets for his commodities; the first arising out of the demand of the people for food; the second was the brewery; and the third the distillery; and if he was cut off from one of these markets, he would be induced in consequence to grow less corn. With respect to Ireland the measure was peculiarly unjust; because one of the principal advantages which accrued to Ireland from the union was, having the British markets open to her agricultural produce. It was as unwise too as it was unjust; because, with a view to a possible scarcity, it was extremely important to avoid discouraging agricultural improvement in Ireland, from which we could derive supplies with much greater certainty than from any other country.

Mr. Hibbert said, that he had heard nothing against, the substance of the measure; as all the objections pointed merely to some circumstances attending its introduction, or the manner in which it was supported. In 1807, an inquiry was instituted how far it might be expedient to introduce the use of sugar and molasses into the distilleries, expressly for the purpose of relieving the planters. The committee to which that inquiry was entrusted, immediately came to a resolution that there was no ground for the measure upon the apprehension of a scarcity of

corn, and that it was not one which they could recommend. This resolution was adopted by a committee in which there was a greater proportion of West Indian planters than there was in the committee which had been ap pointed in the present session. The object for which the last committee was appointed was a very different one; their commission was to inquire how far it might be proper to confine the distilleries to the use of sugar and molasses. In conducting such an inquiry, which required great knowledge of calculation, and considerable information respecting the present state of the colonies, he put it to the house whether it would be proper to leave it to any twenty-one gentlemen of landed property who could have been named. He did not assert that there was an actual scarcity existing, but he affirmed, that some symptoms of a deficiency of corn were already apparent; and if there was a deficiency, there was no way in which it could be better supplied than by the introduction of a substitute for the corn at present under the distilleries. The honourable gentleman next shewed the tendency which the measure would have to relieve the planters, while it was liable to fewer objections than any other mode of relief which could be suggested. He should therefore vote for the speaker's leaving the chair.

Mr. Boyle (solicitor-general of Scotland) admitted that it would be a most foolish policy to relieve one set of men at the expence of another class of the community. When he considered, however, the facts stated in the report · upon the table, and what he knew of the state of the crop, particularly in Scotland, he thought it would be a measure of prudence to stop the distillation from grain, not merely from the beginning of July, as had been proposed by the noble lord, but if possible from the beginning of June. This opinion he had formed some months ago, altogether independant of the present situation of the West Indian planters. He should therefore betray the duty he owed to the country, if he did not vote for the present measure.

Sir Henry Mildmay professed to feel as deeply as any man for the present distress of the West Indian planters, and to be most anxious that some relief should be accorded to them. But this relief might be much better given by a deduction of the present duties on sugar, by a relaxation of the navigation act, or by advancing them

a sum of money, as had been done in one instance before. He hoped, however, that in order to relieve the West Indian planters, the house would not consent to derange the whole of the existing agricultural system of the coun try. The landed interest, he said, already bore their full proportion of the public burdens. The poor rates, the militia, &c. rested exclusively upon the land. The price of barley, he contended, had risen in consequence of the discussion of the measure; because, ever since it was projected, the distilleries had been buying up all the barley they could find at any price, for the purpose of increas ing their stock of spiri's. He therefore hoped that the measure would be dropped.

Mr. Western reprobated the measure as one likely to be productive of greater, mischief than any that could be brought forward. It kept the public feelings during its discussion in a state of perpetual agitation. If a scarcity really existed, ministers had the means of collecting the best information on the subject, and ought to have applied the remedy by stopping the distilleries upon their own responsibility. In 195, when the distilleries were stopped, wheat was at 91s. a quarter, and barley at 42s., wheat having afterwards risen to 108s, and barley to 49s.; and in 1802, the suspension was taken off, when wheat was at. 75s. and barley at 44s,, a price considerably higher than they were at now, when it was proposed to renew the suspension. He believed that there was now in the country a supply of corn amply sufficient to meet the demand. This he inferred from the actual market prices, which had been of late remarkably steady. But if there were any apprehension of a scarcity, we ought to be extending our breweries and distilleries, in order to encourage the growth of corn, instead of probibiting those which now existed from using corn. Neither the farmer nor the landlord, he said, wished to have extravagant prices all they wished, was to have a free and unrestricted trade. This was all the encouragement they asked or desired; and about four years ago he had brought in a bill to discourage the importation of foreign com, which met with the decided support of Mr. Pitt, and the approbation of the house; and he congratulated himself on having introduced that bill, because he was convinced that, in consequence of this act, we were now better prepared to meet the difficulties of our situation than we

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should otherwise have been. With respect to the enemy, he asserted that it would be extremely unwise, by a measure of this sort, to hold out to him the hopes of being able to injure this country by cutting off our foreign supplies. But at the same time that he stated these objections to the measure, he should be most happy if some proper mode of relief could be devised for the West Indian planters.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer disclaimed the idea of interfering unnecessarily with agriculture. The only question in his mind was, whether the circumstances of the present time were such as to justify or call for such interference as that now proposed. He had not at any time given countenance to the idea of the existence of a scarcity; but from the deficiency of the last harvest in Scotland, and the failure of the crops of potatoes and oats in Ireland, he held that we were in a state of imperfect supply. In this state of imperfect supply, and under the circumstances in which we stood with respect to other countries, he thought it right to retain and husband the supplies on hand, till such time as the ascertained produce of the present crop should remove every apprehension of the danger which he thought now to be guarded against. He knew of no instance of the distillation from corn having been stopped by proclamation; but if the necessity should arise when parliament was not sitting, he should think the government very culpable if it, did not take that power upon itself. That was a very different case, however, from that of a danger foreseen while parliament was sitting, as likely to arise when parliament would not be sitting, The apprehensions of scarcity were entertained by many persons of great authority from different parts of the country. Among others, an honourable baronet opposite (sir John Sinclair) had communicated to him an alarm with respect to Scotland; and another honourable member, now absent, the member for Norwich (Mr. Wm, Smith), had spoke with similar apprehension with respect to the county of Norfolk. He was, therefore, not a little surprised at the course pursued by both those honourable gentlemen on the present question. Much of the objec tions that were urged to the measure, was matter of regu lation as to the mode of carrying it into effeet, and was therefore additional ground for going into the committee. He denied that the rise which had lately taken place in

the price of grain, had arisen from the agitation of this measure, or from his statements in the house. The sole cause of that rise was the inadequacy of the stock to the demand. It was impossible for government to take the measures that seemed necessary, otherwise than through parliament. To proceed by proclamation would have the effect of sreading consternation throughout the country, and the honourable gentleman opposite would have been loudest in complaint if that course had been pursued.

Mr. Whitbread reminded the house that the right honourable gentleman who had just sat down, had not from the beginning to the end of his speech, said one word of granting relief to the West India planters. He had now raised the planters entirely out of sight, and recommended the measure on the ground of a scarcity which every one knew did not exist; a scarcity which his majesty's chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland denied to exist in that country, and which was denied to exist in Scotland by the president of the board of controul. But the right honourable gentleman's conduct now was analogous to what it had been when he came into power. Then he set up a cry about popery; and now he wished (or if he did not wish it, the effect of his speech now was) to set up a still more dangerous cry about scarcity. It was evident also, that upon this, as upon many other subjects, there was a great difference of opinion among his majesty's ministers. He observed that government had contributed very much to increase the 'distress of the West India planters, by foolishly taking possession of the Danish islands. He would willingly liave consented to go into a committee. to consider of some means of granting relief to the West India planters, but he could not give the smallest countenance to the present measure.

Mr. William Smith strongly protested against the adoption of this measure, which was calculated to be materially prejudicial to the landed interest of the country, whilst at the same time it was in its very nature inadequate to the end proposed, that of affording any thing like substantial relief to the West India colonies and traders.

Mr. Wilberforce declared that he thought there was reason to congratulate the house on the prospect which it then had of affording even a temporary relief to the West India planters, and endeavoured to convince the house Vol. III.-1803. T