There are not so many active trusts at this time.

Mr. GARNER. In other words, your 38,000 included some of the $10,000 ones that were closed out?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes; that was the total number of individual accounts that have been kept with different property owners. Mr. GARNER. At different times?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. Since the Alien Property Custodian took over the property, at one time or another, he has had 38,000 separate accounts to administer ?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. About 38,000.

Mr. GARNER. Now, Senator, can you tell us how many of those are active to-day?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. I am informed that there are approximately 16,000 active trusts in the office to-day.

Mr. OLDFIELD. How many of those you have now amount to $100,000 or over?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. I have no figures with me that would show that

accurately.

Mr. GARNER. Perhaps Mr. Abbott has some figures?

Mr. OLDFIELD. You could put those figures in the record?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. About how many of these individuals own more than $100,000 worth of property ?

Mr. ABBOTT. That would be hard to say at the present time. We could get you the figures.

Mr. OLDFIELD. And put them in the record?

Mr. ABBOTT. Yes. We can get those figures very easily.

Mr. SUTHERLAND. We will incorporate a statement to that effect

in the record.

(The statement above referred to will be found in the Appendix.) Mr. GARNER. At the present time you hold for the German nationals about $274,000,000 of property ?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. About $218,000,000 of German property.
Mr. GARNER. $218,000,000?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. That includes cash?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. That includes all kinds of property; some of it cash deposited in the Treasury.

Mr. GARNER. You have around 16,000 active trusts?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes, of all kinds; not only German, but Austrian also.

Mr. GARNER. You take care of this property ?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. You said a moment ago you did not have the interest account there. What interest do you mean; the interest which the alien property is drawing on investments in United States bonds or other bands?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Bonds or cash, yes.

Mr. GARNER. What are you doing with the cash you have now? Mr. SUTHERLAND. The cash is deposited, under the terms of the act, with the Treasury Department. They invest that promptly, and we get interest at the rate of about 4 per cent from those funds, and that accrued interest is credited to these various trusts.

Mr. GARNER. How much interest has the alien property, or the cash received for alien property, earned up to January 1 of this year?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. There was earned, prior to March 4, 1923, which was the date after which interest was to be returned, and is now there, unallocated, about $31,000,000 in interest. We have not any figures here with us, but we can furnish you a statement showing approximately the amount of interest that has been earned by all our funds since that date. Some of it has been returned, and some of it is still credited to the trusts.

Mr. GARNER. Under the Winslow Act-I have not read the law-as I understand it, you were authorized to return up to $10,000 on every trust you then had under control?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. Up to that time you had collected $31,000,000 in interest?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. There was $31,000,000 in interest accrued up to March, 1923.

Mr. GARNER. Up to that time?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. Now then, you did comply with the terms of the Winslow Act and you had left of January 1, 1925, $218,000,000 of German property.

I would like to have you put in the record a statement showing what interest those funds have earned since March 4, 1923, up to the present time, so the record may show exactly the state of the interest account of these funds both before and after.

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes; we will do that.

(The statement above referred to is as follows:)

INTEREST AND INCOME ACCOUNT UNDER THE WINSLOW ACT

As provided under section 23 of the trading with the enemy act as amended March 4, 1923, there has been $16,744,041.89 interest earned and allocated to the various trusts for distribution. This amount represents interest earnings from March 4, 1923, to March 4, 1926, on the principal cash balance deposited in account No. 8 in the United States Treasury.

In addition to the above amount there has been $1,970,059.69 paid to the enemies as income other than interest. Of the total allocation to interest (being $16,744,041.89) there has been $3,340,121.44 actually paid up to January 1, 1926, leaving a balance of $13,403,920.45. Since January 1, 1926, to April 1, 1926, there has been $1,523,897.10 additional paid, leaving $11,880,023.35 yet to be disbursed.

Under an agreement with the Secretary of the Treasury it was decided that the Alien Property Custodian should have a special checking account where moneys could be transferred as required to cover payments under section 23. This left the major portion of interest in account No. 8, where it has been kept for investment, thereby adding to the principal the interest not required for immediate payment of claims, it being understood that on short notice from the Alien Property Custodian the Secretary of the Treasury would sell enough securities to satisfy his demand.

Up to the present time there has been a total of $6,834,078.23 paid to the enemies under section 23 of the trading with the enemy act, which is supported by a schedule of payments as follows:

Interest earned on account No. 8 and allocated to interest

1923 to 1924. 1924 to 1925.

1925 to 1926.

Total interest allocated_

Interest paid during period Mar. 4, 1923, to Mar. 4, 1924_.

Interest paid during period Mar. 4, 1924, to Jan. 1, 1926.

Payments from Jan. 1, 1926, to Apr. 1, 1926...

Balance of allocated interest invested............

$5, 939, 382. 04 5, 863, 036. 25 4, 941, 623. 60

16, 744, 041. 89 1, 496, 540. 56

15, 247, 501. 33 1, 843, 580. 88

13, 403, 920. 45 1, 523, 897. 10

11, 880, 023. 35

Mr. MILLS. Have you had any interest under the terms of the Winslow Act?

Mr. ABBOTT. In other words, all income earned since March 4, 1923, is either paid out to the owners, who are shown to be entitled to it, or, if it is more than $10,000, it is credited to their trusts. Therefore, that apparently takes out the interest since that time from any part, or from being added to the $31,000,000.

Mr. MILLS. How often do you pay?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. We pay quarterly.

Mr. MILLS. Prior to March 4, 1923, did you make any distinction between dividends and interest?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes; there was a difference. Interest only applied to the cash items deposited.

Mr. MILLS. Let me ask you this question. I suppose the $10,000 returned was, in the main, the capital, and the dividends prior to March 4, 1923, are still held by the office of the Alien Property Custodian?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. In some cases there might be that much interest, but in some cases, of course, there would not be enough interest, and it would largely be capital.

Mr. MILLS. This is what I am getting at. In the $31,000,000 item, is that straight interest?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. That is straight interest.

Mr. MILLS. What has become of the dividends earned prior to the passage of the Winslow Act?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. They were all credited to the trusts.

Mr. MILLS. To the principal of the trusts?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. GARNER. May I ask you a question with reference to these statements made by Mr. Abbott?

If I understood Mr. Abbott, he said since March 4, 1923, there was no more interest to be accounted for, because you paid it out?

Mr. ABBOTT. No.

Mr. SUTHERLAND. It would not now be in the custody of the Alien Property Custodian; it has not 'been added to the figures because they have been paying it out. It would not be in the hands of the Treasury because it had been paid out.

Mr. GARNER. No interest whatever?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Some of it possibly would be, but part of it would not be.

Mr. GARNER. Suppose you seized the property of one of these aliens to the extent of $1,000,000; you could only pay him back $10.000, and you have $990,000 that you do not pay any interest on? Mr. SUTHERLAND. Up to $10,000.

Mr. GARNER. Of course, where it does run over $10,000 you have to account for that 4 per cent. I want you to put in the record a statement, not only in regard to that, but also a statement of the amount of interest you paid and still hold since March 4, 1923.

Mr. SUTHERLAND. The balance would be credited.

Mr. GARNER. Up to the present time, to the trust?

Mr. SUTHERLAND. Yes.

Mr. NEWTON. I have here a copy of the hearings before the Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce on the Winslow bill.