Mr. COLEMAN. Could I explain this just briefly?

Senator JAVITS. Yes; but first, the photograph there is a photograph of one of your primary opponents, is it not?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes.

Senator JAVITS. Who actually was successful in the primary?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes, sir; he defeated me in 1963 as I defeated him in 1956. He was my second primary opponent in 1956 and again in 1963. I won the first time and he won the last time and I guess the last one is the one that counts.

Senator JAVITS. Not necessarily, Governor, you got the last one

now.

Mr. COLEMAN. Beg your pardon.

Senator JAVITS. You are now up for higher office yourself.

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, I know that rests in the will of the people. Senator JAVITS. Would you explain that advertisement for us? If I may read it, then perhaps my colleagues will understand what it is. (The document handed to Mr. Coleman was returned to Senator Javits.)

Senator JAVITS. This is a picture of the Lieutenant GovernorLieutenant Governor Johnson and U.S. Marshal James McShane, allegedly taken at the University of Mississippi and on the top banner headline it says, "Let's tell the whole truth" and it really is, "Let's tell the whole truth, Paul," and I assume that means Paul Johnson and the rest says, "when the fist came down the hand went out," and then it says, "Meredith went in." "Elect a man you can trust, J. P. Coleman, the man for Mississippi," and on the very bottom as has been identified, submitted to and approved by A. F. Summer, State campaign manager.

Mr. COLEMAN. Senator Javits, that campaign for Governor eventually revolved around two things. No. 1, my support of the Democratic ticket in the national campaign of 1960. It was made-that was made a great issue by my opposition.

No. 2, the lieutenant governor said that since they put out a picture showing him with his fist up in Mr. McShane's and he was saying, on that account he ought to be elected Governor of Mississippi. About 3 days before the crisis at Ole' Miss I was sent for and was asked for my advice about what ought to be done and the Governor said at that time, and I don't want to reopen any controversy with him, he beat me and that's it, and I have no further words to say about it, except he said he heard me in that conference advising the Governor and others to obey the court order and to let Meredith in the university which in the meantime as I say, he stood for us in this picture and we suggested that he tell the whole story about what went on in that gesture, but he didn't do it and that's a closed chapter. I got beat for Governor myself in Mississippi and that's all over with. Senator JAVITS. That picture shows Lieutenant Governor Johnson shaking hands with the marshal?

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes.

Senator JAVITS. The chief marshal. Now, that had the clear implication, did it not, Governor, that you were not favorable to the admission of Meredith to the University of Mississippi in 1963, did it not?

Mr. COLEMAN. Well, I don't think that necessarily follows; no, sir. I think we just took a picture there that Mr. Johnson had been using

and to his advantage as he saw it politically and he gave it another interpretation as the people wanted to accept it. A great deal of controversy about what went on and how come. As I say, I lost that race and I have never said a word of regret about either running or getting beat, either, and I have expressed no regrets over the thing that caused me to get defeated. I feel when you submit yourself to the body public and you get defeated, you got to take your licking like a man and say nothing about it.

Senator JAVITS. I am sure that would be your nature and character, but I do not think that is the point of my particular inquiry.

Mr. COLEMAN. What I was trying to tell you all-I was trying to remember all about that circular. We put out lots of circulars as you might guess. That's the first time I have seen it since.

Senator ERVIN. I have not seen the circular.

I would like to find out exactly what the circular shows. I think it would be appropriate to have it.

Mr. COLEMAN. The point, Mr. Chairman, was, that picture shows the Lieutenant Governor shaking hands with Mr. McShane whereas he is showing a fist in Mr. McShane's fist, and he is showing the fist in his face, but he was shaking hands with him. That's the whole point. Senator ERVIN. I think that elucidates and illuminates the situation sufficiently.

Senator JAVITS. Governor, do you believe and feel that there is some other moral standard which you will have—which you had as candidate than what you will have as a judge?

Mr. COLEMAN. If the Senator will allow me to say so, I doubt very much that I should go into moral beliefs and moral standards. As I understand our Government and our country, the church is separated entirely from the State and the State from the church. I, of course, am a member of the Baptist Church, have been since I was 14 years of age. I have my moral beliefs and all, but I ascribe to every other American's right to his belief in the moral field, whatever they may be. I just propose, if I am a judge, to do my duty according to the Constitution of the United States, the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States and the acts of Congress.

Senator JAVITS. I only asked the question, sir, because it leads, it seems to me directly from the assertion that in the future-that in the turmoil and heat and opposition of a political campaign, views espoused with which to be the most charitable, in my judgment, the one who espouses them should not be charged 100 percent with their full import because he is in a political campaign and it is needed to win. Now, I am trying to find out whether that is or is not your attitude.

Mr. COLEMAN. My feeling is that a campaign for Governor in Mississippi or any other State is quite a different matter to being selected for a judgeship of any court. One is partisan on the face of it and the other should be and in my book is nonpartisan and it depends entirely on preparations and qualifications for the office and the spirit with which you approach the duties of the office.

Senator JAVITS. So that you would say that there is another standard to your conduct as a candidate from your conduct as a judge and that is what I asked in the first place.

Mr. COLEMAN. I don't believe that I could agree to make any statement yes or no on that proposition. I think that my race for

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Governor stands for itself and I think that my nomination for the judiciary stands for itself, whatever it may be.

Senator JAVITS. Governor, have you during the luncheon recess checked up on the quotations which seem to raise some questions as to veracity this morning, that is, not your veracity, but as to whether or not they were accurate quotes? May I just read them to you again?

This was allegedly published in the Clarion-Ledger on December 19, 1955, page 1, reading as follows, "Let there be no misunderstanding. I am for segregation."

Then, another quotation was read which allegedly came out from the same source and it was in 1956 and it said, "I do not now favor the Negro voting in Mississippi. He is wholly unprepared to assume this responsibility."

Then the third one came out of the questions, the collective questions of Senators, here which were mainly asked by my colleague Senator Kennedy, "When I stood alone before a hostile U.S. Supreme Court and showed those Communist lawyers they could not fool with the great State of Mississippi."

That was in the case that you were talking about.

I asked you specifically about the two to which I referred. I will repeat them.

December 19, 1955, "Let there be no misunderstanding. I am for segregation."

Mr. COLEMAN. Would you like me to discuss that?

Senator JAVITS. Either one.

Mr. COLEMAN. I will take them one at a time because I can't tell them when they are separated. I had no opportunity during the noon hour to look these up. My files are all down at my home in Mississippi where they have been since I went out of the Governor's office. But I am inclined to think, based on recollection that I made this statement on December 19, 1955, and if my recollection serves me correctly, that is also the same date on which I said that the proposed nullification of the decisions of the Supreme Court by resolution of the Mississippi Legislature was legal poppycock and it wouldn't work. I think that I made that statement in connection with the other.

In other words, I was expressing my legal opinion of the doctrine of nullification but at the same time I had some assurances to make as to how we were going to operate our schools. That was on the 19th of December, I think I believe you say, and that was the date that I had a meeting in Jackson and if I had the whole story in front of me I was not going to be sworn into office until the following January when these proposals were suggested. Even though I said that I considered it worthless and foolish and legal poppycock there were members of the legislature who said they were going to introduce it anyhow and have it passed. This did not come to pass. they immediately, after I took office-I was invited up to Governor Stanley's at Richmond, Va., and I went up there along with a number of other southern Governors—not just three or four of us—as I recall, if I had my memorandum books here I could tell you who was present in which they were talking about this interposition idea and agreed to go along with the other basis so long as the whole thing was stated on the face of it that it was by lawful and constitutional and peaceable means.

Now,

I found out as a little boy that you can't make war on the United States very successfully. My great-grandfather was in the Civil War and I am one of the first descendants in 75 years to get a college education out of it. We all learned that the hard way.

What was the second quotation?

Senator JAVITS. Allegedly one which said in 1956, and I am still looking for let's go to the Meet the Press appearance on June 23, 1957. There you are alleged to have stated that you considered most Mississippi Negroes unqualified to vote.

Mr. COLEMAN. That Meet the Press was down at the Governor's conference at Williamsburg in which Governor Stanley had 15 minutes of the program and I had 15 minutes. I think that's the same program in-I think that is the same program where Miss Mae Craig tried to get me to say integration would never occur in the State of Mississippi and I told her that "never" was a long time and I wouldn't take that position. I don't remember the rest of the interview, but it has been printed and the interview could be put in the record. Senator JAVITS. Shall we do that?

Mr. COLEMAN. I wouldn't object to it.

Senator JAVITS. I ask unanimous consent for that purpose, Mr. Chairman.

Senator ERVIN. Have you got a copy?

Senator JAVITS. I will give it to you very promptly.

Mr. COLEMAN. I appeared on that program and whatever the record shows I said.

Senator JAVITS. It ties into it. This is the 1956 quote that allegedly was in October 1956. I will get the exact quote and I will submit it to you.

Mr. COLEMAN. I will go back to what I said when I was responding to questions by Senator Kennedy on that, Senator Javits. That statement is too much out of character for me to admit that I said it unless I saw the absolute proof of where and when and to whom and under what circumstances. I am not going to make it a practice denying every quotation that I made. I don't propose to deny that I made it.

Senator JAVITS. Did you read the reprinting of the Meet the Press interview after it was put out?

Mr. COLEMAN. I am sure I did. I suppose I have copies of it. Senator JAVITS. So we may assume that goes in the record, there are no challenges as to that.

Mr. COLEMAN. I didn't-I don't see a copy. I don't see how I would want to challenge it.

Senator JAVITS. If it was submitted to you in advance to be sure there is no question about it, it is an accurate report.

In answer to a question of Senator Fong, it ties into this very same issue, you said that you believed any qualified person in Mississippi should vote. Now, I am sure you are aware, Governor, that there is an enormous controversy over this question of what qualifications have been imposed by registrars, et cetera, which have disqualified many of the Negroes that even managed to get through that wicket where they might register in Mississippi and that was one of the greatest aspects of the debate on the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Now, you will be a judge in passing on those very cases and therefore, I ask you, how do you define as you see it, in line with your present philosophy who is a qualified person to vote?

Mr. COLEMAN. I would like to point out in the first place on that, Senator Javits, that only last week and the week before, the Mississippi Legislature repealed every statute it had on the subject of literacy tests for voters and also submitted to a vote of the people a proposed amendment to the Constitution taking those requirements out of the constitution of Mississippi, section 244 which has been in there since 1890 and which was approved by the Supreme Court in Williams against Mississippi in 1903. So on the present basis-under Mississippi law as presently written, all the applicants will have to do in order to be considered qualified to register will be to fill out a card stating what his name is, address, precinct, and nothing further than that. But I will be very frank with you, Senator, assuming this question might come before the court of appeals, I can sit here and discuss it with you and disqualify myself from sitting on the case. Of course, I might not be called on to sit on it anyway. You know there are nine judges on the court of appeals and they sit in panels of three and the chief judge assigns the cases. So there is only one chance in three that I would ever sit on any particular question in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Whatever the chief judge assigns me-if he assigns me as one of the three judges I will meet it unflinchingly and with judicial purpose and try to reach a perfectly judicial result. I notice from hearings which have been held in the past on judicial appointments that judges or prospective judges have tried to be pretty careful to avoid disqualifying themselves in advance on these questions and the committee has approved of it. Obviously, if I give much of an opinion on it counsel on one side or the other can say, well, you took a stand on this and I would have to disqualify myself from sitting-passing on any acts either privately or publicly. I am not trying to be circuitous with you at all.

Senator JAVITS. I do not conceive of my role as that of being a cross-examiner. I conceive of my role as being an elucidator, so that everything may appear on the record and every Senator will respond to his own conscience as I will tomorrow in doing his duty as unflinchingly as I feel you feel you will as a judge.

Mr. COLEMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator JAVITS. Governor, what do you have to do as Governor or in any other way with the so-called State sovereignty commission in Mississippi?

Mr. COLEMAN. That has been discussed a great deal and up until now no question has been raised on it and I am certainly glad that you have raised it.

The State sovereignity commission was originally established in 1956 stating in the face of the act that this commission was being set up to resist by lawful and constitutional means any usurpation about the Supreme Court of the United States or the Federal Government, I believe is the way it was put, on the sovereignity of the State of Mississippi. The act provided that three members, I believe, would be appointed by the speaker of the house of the Mississippi Legislature. Three by the Governor and the Lieutenant Governor and the attorney general would be members ex officio and the Governor and three of his appointees would also be members. Based on the fact that I saw with that personnel named in that manner, that commission could be used for some good purposes and could be prevented from doing any harm at all and I signed the act and it became law. There