think Charley Mayer went to the box at the time. Mr. Spencer came up from the door and shook hands with Moulton, and said, "You have got me into some trouble down there." Moulton said, "Yes; when I telegraphed you for some money, if you had loaned it to me I would have been all right." Senator Spencer said he had no money. Then they went in together into the sitting-room on the right.

Q. Had you before that time ever heard a conversation between Senator Spencer and Mr. Moulton; and, if so, when was it and where was it? I do not mean in Washington, but in Mobile.-A. I had heard none. I heard some conversation in the post-office, in the postmaster's room, but I do not believe Senator Spencer was present.

Q. Who was present?-A. Mr. Low Mayer, H. Ray Myers, and Moulton; that was some time before the November election.

Q. You say Senator Spencer was not present at that conversation ?— A. No; I think not.

Q. Have you told all the conversation that occurred in Willard's Hotel?-A. About all I heard about the money; that if he had honored his draft, or had honored his telegram, or something to that effect, he would have been all right.

Q. Was anything at all said about the reason why he had drawn on him?-A. No, sir; I did not hear.

Q. Or what right he had to draw on him?-A. No, sir.
Q. Nothing of that sort -A. No, sir.

Q. Are you telling all you know about that conversation ?-A. All I know about that conversation. He said if he had honored his draft, or something to that effect, he would have been all right; but I do not know when he sent the telegram for the money, or what it was, because they went right straight to the sitting-room together.

Q. Do you know any reason why you were re-instated in that office by Petherbridge ?-A. I do not. Senator Spencer gave me a letter to Major Petherbridge. I carried it down to him when I arrived there, and then I telegraphed to Senator Spencer, and Senator Spencer telegraphed to Petherbridge; that is, Petherbridge told me he received a telegram from Spencer to have me appointed.

Q. You do not know any reason for that on his part ?--A. I do not. Q. Had you stated before that time to any person the conversation that you heard between Mr. Spencer and Mr. Moulton in the post-office? Mr. MAYER. I object to that question. The general has no right to cross-examine or impeach his own witness.

Mr. MORGAN. He is not my witness.

Mr. MAYER. He is not mine.

Mr. MORGAN. Nor mine either. He is the witness of the country, to testify in an investigation here; and on an investigation of this kind, when a man is brought forward by any person, he is not necessarily indorsed, either as to his credibility or in any other respect, by the party who offers him by way of estoppel on him from showing any state of facts that he is cognizant of. My line of inquiry is directed upon affidavits which I have in my possession in regard to what this man knows. I never spoke to the man in my life, and never saw him until this morning. He has made statements, however, in regard to this matter that have been sent to me, made before gentlemen of very high respectabil. ity and character, and I was trying to ascertain whether the man was telling the truth now or then. I do not want anything here but the truth; I would not have anything else brought out; but I think the circumstances of his examination are sufficient to justify the committee in

allowing me some latitude in regard to this man, if we want to arrive at the truth of his statements.

Senator CAMERON. Were the statements to which you refer made under oath?

Mr. MORGAN. No, sir.

Senator CAMERON. He is now under oath.

Mr. MORGAN. Some of the statements he made were under oath, but not the one I am now inquiring about.

Senator CAMERON. One statement is made under oath and the other is not. The presumption would be the statement under oath was the truth; and if the other differed from it, that it was not the truth

Mr. MORGAN. I concede that presumption, but all presumptions are not true. We very often find it necessary to upset presumptions to get at the truth, and the courts are somewhat indulgent in that line of proceeding.

Mr. CHANDLER. You asked him if he had made statements on this same subject to other people. Did you do that with a view of putting in those conversations?

Mr. MORGAN. No; I wanted to know to whom he had made those statements, but the point upon which I was examining him at the time was in reference to how it was that he happened to be appointed to that office.

The CHAIRMAN. This is your witness, although you may not be acquainted with him. You called him to ask him about a specific conversation. He gives his vesion of it. If you asked him whether he did not make a different statement at some other time, you would not be allowed to contradict him, no matter what he might say about it.

Mr. MORGAN. I have an affidavit of this witness, dated the 13th of March, 1876, sworn to before Caleb H. Lindsay, notary public of Mobile County, which has been forwarded to me by a gentleman of Mobile.

The WITNESS. When I told the gentleman to make corrections in that statement, he said, "That is all right." I wanted to correct some words there, and he would not do it.

The CHAIRMAN. Never mind that now.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) A short time before the meeting of the general assembly of Alabama, in the fall of 1872, probably in the latter part of October or during November, did you overhear a conversation between John J. Moulton and Senator Spencer?-A. That was the part I wanted to correct, and he said, "Let it stay; give him hell when you get there.” Q. Who said that?-A. Major Price. He put in more words than I told him.

Q. In which conversation you heard Spencer say to Moulton" A. No, I did not.

Q. Wait a moment. "You heard Spencer say to Moulton that he needed money to secure his election to the Senate?"-A. No, sir; that is what I wanted to correct.

Q. Which he should return to him immediately after the election was over ?"-A. No, sir; I did not say it. When the conversation I heard between those gentlemen took place, I do not believe Senator Spencer was at Mobile at the time.

Q. You did not swear to that?-A. No. He said, "General Morgan wants that to call your attention."

Q. Did Moulton tell him "he had no money of his own to give him ?”— A. That was the conversation I heard, but not with Spencer-with Myers and others-that he had no money; he was behind on the payroll now.

Mr. CHANDLER. Do I understand the committee to rule that this witness may be cross-examined on that affidavit ?

Mr. MAYER. We have no evidence that it is an affidavit.

Mr. CHANDLER. I understood the committee to allow the examination of a witness in reference to what he had testified before the committee of the Alabama legislature, but this is an ex-parte statement; we know nothing about it.

Mr. MORGAN. I am not saying anything about an affidavit; I am asking questions.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand the general is asking an original question, whether such a conversation took place. He has a right to do that.

Mr. MORGAN. But it is a cross-examination, with the paper before him.

The CHAIRMAN. He may refer to that to assist his memory; but he is asking the witness an original question.

Mr. CHANDLER. That is practically allowing him to cross-examine on the affidavit without letting the witness see the paper.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness is not now answering whether he swore to such a thing or not; but General Morgan is asking whether the witness heard such a conversation.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) Did, Spencer say that the amount required by him would be about $10,000?-A. No, sir.

Mr. MAYER. The witness has said that Senator Spencer was not present.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) Did Moulton say that the only money he had was post-office money?-A. That was the conversation I heard.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Was that in Senator Spencer's presence?-A. No, sir.

Mr. MORGAN. I am referring, of course, to a time when Spencer was present. The question relates back to the other.

Mr. CHANDLER. But he says that, in the conversation about which you are inquiring, Senator Spencer was not present. Now, you continue assuming that Spencer was present, and ask whether Spencer said so, or Moulton said so and so in Spencer's presence.

Mr. MORGAN. Some light about Senator Spencer's presence may break in on his mind as we go along. (To the witness.) Did you, at any time, hear Senator Spencer say to John J. Moulton that he could make it all right at Washington with McDonald in the money-order department?— A. I heard a conversation in there, but Senator Spencer was not there;' I told you that conversation happened in that very room.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) I am talking about any time, now.-A. No, sir. Q. When you came to Washington in January, 1873, did you see Senator Spencer at any other time than the one you mentioned when Moulton was present?-A. Yes, sir; I saw him at the Capitol many times.

Q. Did you say anything to him about having been turned out of the post-office-A. Yes, sir; Senator Spencer remarked that he could not have Moulton re-instated, but he would have the case dismissed in court as long as he paid the money to the Government.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) That was Moulton's case?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) Was it at that time that Senator Spencer wrote or telegraphed to Petherbridge to have you re-instated in the postoffice?-A. That was in 1873.

Q. I am speaking of the time you were here conversing with him?— A. It was after that, because Moulton left here long before I did.

Q. Had Moulton been dismissed from his office at the time of this conversation at Willard's Hotel, or was it afterward ?-A. He was dismissed; he had been arrested and given bond before then.

Q. Did you come here with Moulton?-A. No, sir.

Q. In that conversation at Willard's Hotel, did Moulton tell Spencer "that he was in trouble, as he (Spencer) knew, on his account, and he had come to see him about it"?-A. No, sir. That I wanted to exclude, but Major Price put it in.

Q. "And expected Spencer to help him out"?-A. To have the case dismissed; not that I heard that in Willard's.

Q. Was that said that he "expected Spencer to help him out"?-A. No, sir.

Q. Did he say that "if he had the money that he (Moulton) had let Spencer have, he would be all right with the Department"?-A. No, sir; except that if he had got the money he telegraphed for, or the draft, or whatever it was, he would have been all right; he would have paid up.

Q. Did Spencer then propose that they should go to see the Postmaster-General next morning about it, after that conversation ?—A. I heard about it

Q. Wait a moment. And did he say anything to encourage Moulton to believe that it would be all right; that he would arrange the matter for him?-A. No, sir; I know they made arrangement to go and see the Postmaster-General next day.

Q. Do you recollect a conversation the next morning at the Capitol in which Mr. H. Ray Myers and Spencer and Moulton were present ?— A. Moulton was not present. Mr. Myers and Senator Spencer were talking about it. Myers thought Moulton would be re-instated. Senator Spencer said no, but he would try to have the case dismissed in court as long as he had paid up what he owed the Government.

Q. Who paid your board while you staid in Washington at that time?

Mr. MAYER. I object to that question.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not see what that has got to do with the case. Mr. MORGAN. I want to show that he was a pensioner of the Senator's bounty here.

Mr. MAYER. I withdraw the objection.

The WITNESS. I came up here to get something to do. It took me fifteen days to get up here. I had to work my way up on the railroads. I had no money. I went to Senator Spencer and told him Moulton had removed me and put a woman in my place. He gave me $2, and then gave me $3 at another time, and so on.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) Did you ever see me before this morning?. A. I have seen you make a speech in Mobile, but never to know you. Q. Did you ever have any connection with me?-A. No, sir.

Q. Or any correspondence with me?-A. No.

Q. Why did you write to me asking me to have you summoned here?— A. Judge Southworth wrote to me first.

Q. (Handing a paper.) Is that the letter you sent me ?--A. Yes, sir. Q. Why did you do that?-A. That was after I was discharged. Southworth told me in New Orleans that I was to write to you about it. Q. About what?-A. About Senator Spencer's case.

Q. To induce me to have you summoned here ?-A. He told me to write to you. I did not want to come now until Mr. Eagon told me I had better come; if I did not I would be arrested.

Mr. CHANDLER. Are the reasons why the witness came here pertinent?

Mr. MORGAN. It is due to myself.

Mr. CHANDLER. Certainly, we have nothing to do with it. We know nothing about it. If General Morgan wishes to make a statement to the committee as to his reasons, that is another matter.

Mr. MORGAN. This is the second instance here where men, having deliberately sworn to certain statements, have been summoned by me in good faith, (for I would not impose on the committee, nor attempt to have them summoned unless I was entirely satisfied from some source that I thought reliable,) and have not sustained them here. This being the second instance of that kind, it looks to me a little remarkable, and I think the committee ought to allow me to put on this record some protection against any possible imputation of my having imposed on the committee in drawing men here of this character. The committee see at once that I have had no personal relations with this man, no political affiliation with him or anything of that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. (Examining the letter.) It is not supposed to reflect on you, general. To offer this letter would simply be to discredit your own witness. I do not see that you have any right to offer it.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) I understand you to say you did hear a conversation in the post-office at Mobile about the use of money?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was that?-A. In 1872.

Q. At what time?

Mr. MAYER. I object to that. He has already testified that Mr. Spencer was not present at that conversation.

The WITNESs. That was the conversation I wrote about in that note. Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) I want to know who the persons were who were present at that time in the post-office?

Mr. Chandler objected to the question.

Q. (By the CHAIRMAN.) Was this conversation before or after the November election ?-A. Before.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee has ruled, general, that you may prove a corrupt transaction, although Senator Spencer was not present, by proving it as a transaction at the time. The committee ruled yesterday that you could not prove by the statements of other parties afterward that they had made such a corrupt transaction, but you could prove the transaction itself. If you propose to prove a corrupt transaction

Mr. MORGAN. What I understand from this affidavit-of course I do not know what this man is going to say; I could not now anticipate anything he would say-is, that he heard a conversation between Moulton and other persons in the post-office, in which the scheme was laid for the use of the money of the Government of the United States out of that post-office, for the purpose of conducting that campaign. I want to put the names of those people on the record, because I suppose it likely that some of them will be witnesses here.

The CHAIRMAN. You may ask who were present at a certain time in the post-office, to show the presence, whatever that amounts to.

Q. (By Mr. MORGAN.) Who were present at the conversation you speak of? I do not ask you to state what the conversation was.-A. Mr. H. Ray Myers was there, and Mr. Moulton, the postmaster. Q. Anybody else?-A. Lou. Mayer.

Q. When did that occur?-A. That was before the November election, in 1872.

Q. In what month did it occur?-A. I cannot say exactly; September or October.