by discussions of this kind, at the present moment. He adverted to the mischiefs produced by false notions of rights in the mind of the navy not many years since. He insisted on the constitutional right of the crown, from time immemo. rial, to the entire control of the army, and contended that there was no ground now to limit that con trol. He did not deny the right of parliament to interfere, but he maintained that the regular control over the mutiny act was sufficient. Seeing no possible benefit from the production of the papers, which could not be produced without great difficulty, and being still more adverse to the use proposed to be made of them when produced, he would give his decided negative to the motion.

Sir Francis Burdett thought it would not be matter of any diff. culty to make out the returns from the regimental records which he supposed were kept of all such matters. The great amount of our army at present, and the vast proportion of the population of the British empire which would be subjected to military law by the local militia, rendered it highly proper, at the present time in particular, that corporal punishment, so degrading in the eyes of all mankind, hut so particularly obnoxious to the feelings of Britons, should be no longer continued. He cited the opinion of Mr. justice Blackstone, to show that the mutiny act was a hasty measure, requiring much revision, and by no means sufficient to afford the constitutional control over the power of the crown, with respect to the army, which it proposed to give, and which was attributed to it by the right honourable secretary at war. The house qught to have the information he

required, in order to enable it to judge to what extent corporal pu nishments were inflicted, how far they were attended with beneficial effects, and whether the infliction of them may be diminished or got rid of. It would be of material advantage to satisfy the mind of the army, and that of the public, if the present system should be continued, that it was on con sideration found that no other could with safety be resorted to. He knew that a high spirit of honour existed in the British army, and he wished to try how far that spirit, seconded by the corresponding principle of shame, could be made to answer all the purposes now ineffectually sought by the disgraceful system of corporal pu nishment. The inequality of the application of corporal punishment, proved it to be frequent ly matter of caprice in the indivi dual, and this added materially to the bad effects produced by its shameful natúre. ́He would state one instance, that of the 15th dragoons, in which, under one commander, only eight instances of the infliction of corporal punishment had taken place in six years; and under the present illustrious commander (his royal highness the duke of Cumberland), no less than eighty instances had occurred in half the time. The comparative effect, so far as he could learn, was this that under the former system, the discipline and character of the regiment were at the highest pitch; and under the present sy stem, the regiment was likely to be rendered good for nothing. It was of the utmost danger to have such a power vested so much in the caprice of the commanding officer. It was urged against him, that the maintenance of corporal pu

nishment

nishment was essential to the discipline of the army. Why then was it not inflicted in any other army? Why was it not in the armies of our enemy, whose discipline or spirit was certainly not liable to any impeachment? He should persevere in taking the sense of the house on his motion, and he hoped the gentlemen opposite would feel the impropriety of with holding information so interesting and important to the house.

Lord Castlereagh could not conceive what motives of public advantage could have induced the honourable baronet to bring for ward this momentous subject al most on the last day of the session; nor could he see that any practical benefit was likely to result from the interference of the house in this business. If the honourable ba ronet saw so general an interest to the constitution, to the character of the arm and the feelings and principles of the people, why did he not call the attention of the house to this matter at an earlier period of the session? Adverse as he was in every point of view to the motion of the honourable baronet, and the purposes for which it was avowedly brought forward, his esition was confirmed by the fallacy of the arguments adduced in support of it. The frequency of the infliction of punishment was a presumptive proof, not of unnecessary severity, but of the prevaInce of the offences that called for that punishment. He imputed no improper motive to the honourable baronet in agitating this subject, but he saw mich mischief likely to result from rendering the army discontented with the system by which it was governed. There was no civil or military code what wever, that could in every point

1808.

stand the test of a strict theoretic scrutiny; though there were certainly many which were found highly equitable and beneficial in practice. The honourable baronet particularly admired the French military code, and this was not the only instance in which he was disposed to follow the example of that nation. But it was not to be supposed that because Bonapartehad ordered one or two soldiers,

who had been disarmed in the late

affair at Madrid, a punishment founded on the principle of shame (that of carrying a stick on parade instead of their arms), that this practice, or the principle on which it was founded, was the universal rule of the French military system. The French generals, it was weil known, had the power of ordering men from the ranks when guilty of any breach of discipline, and commanding them to be shot on the spot. In no instance was the slightest corporal punishment inflicted in this country, unless ordered by the sentence of a competent tribunal, judging on cath. He animadverted on the impropriety of the illustration adduced by the honourable baronet from a particular regiment (the 15th dragoons), without any regard to the difference that may exist in the state of the regiment in point of numbers, of the character of its men, or the prevalence of any of, fence which it was desirable to eradicate. It was very wrong to attribute the frequency of punishment to the caprice of the commanding officer, when it was known that no punishment cou'd be inflicted without the sentence of a court martial. The noble lord then represented the injury that may result from misrepresenting, and traducing the system under Q

which

which the British army had so long flourished; under which it felt itself so well situated, that it maintained the most exemplary loyalty in the most critical times; under which it acquired glory for itself and for the country, and under which, he would venture to say, it was matter of pride to every individual in the army to be a British soldier. From all these considerations he was of opinion, and he was sure the house would agree with him, that the present system of governing the army ought not to be disturbed.

Lord Folkstone supported the motion, which was opposed by sir G. Warrender, Mr. Windham, and lord Temple: and on a division there were,

July 4th. Mr. Whitbread began by observing, that he had with considerable anxiety waited till the last moment before the present session terminated, in the hope that his majesty's ministers would see the propriety of adopting some mode whereby the sense of that house could be obtained on a subject of such universal interest as that of the present transactions in Spain. He thought that nothing was more to be desired than a distinct expression of the sentiment of that house pon a subject of such importance, and he could not help expressing his surprise that no communication had been made to the house by his majesty's ministers, as it was upon such a communication that the declaration and the sentiments of that house could best be founded. When this subject was submitted to their consideration on a recent occasion by his right hon. friend Mr. Sheridan), he (Mr. Whit

bread) had felt it to be his duty frankly to state his objections to the impropriety and inexpediency of then agitating it, as he was apprehensive that the discussion at that time might have prematurely committed the whole Spanish nation with France: since that period, however, the case was materially altered; the Spanish nation was now committed with France; never were a people engaged in a more arduous and honourable straggle, and he earnestly prayed God to crown their efforts with a success as final as their efforts were glorious! He could not help thinking that, under such circumstances, it would have been well to have given an opportunity of manifesting to the brave Spaniards the sympathy that glowed in every British heart in favour of their cause, through the proper channel, the legitimate or gan of the British people. He thought there had been reason to have expected that a message from the king would have been ere now brought down for a vote of credit, to enable the government more ef fectually to second the wishes of all ranks of Englishmen, by aiding and assisting the Spaniards. He had no doubt that, had such a'message been sent down, it would have been met with the unanimous concurrence of that house, and he was equally certain that this concur rence would have been echoed throughout the country. He would, however, abstain from saying more upon this subject, or going the length his feelings on such a subject would naturally lead him, as he might be liable to misrepresentation; but he would repeat, that from the bottom of his soul he wished success to the patriotic ef forts of the Spaniards, and that their present glorious struggle

might be crowned with the recovery of their liberty as a people, and the assertion of their independence as a nation: and in thus expressing his own, he felt assured that he spoke the wishes of that house and the country.

Lord Castlereagh said, that upon a recent occasion, when the present subject was brought before the consideration of the house, he had felt it his painful duty to express his disapprobation of the tone and manner in which the hon. gentleman had thought fit to comment on certain circumstances, the recapitulation of which could not have been attended with any good consequences; it now, however, gave him considerable pleasure, that the grateful task had devolved to him of expressing his complete coinci dence in the feelings manifested by the hon. gentieman, as to the issue of the great and glorious struggle in which the Spanish people were at present engaged. The reason why the government had not thought it necessary was, simply, that the provision already made by parliament had been so liberal, that the government were not without the means of giving to the cause of freedom and independence, by assisting the Spaniards, that aid which the public voice, and the wishes of every friend to liberty throughout the world, demanded should be promptly and unconditionally offered. He could assure the hon. gentleman and the house, that no means would be left untried, that no exertion would be wanting on their parts, to make all the resources which they had it in their power to apply, subservient to the great object, as much wished for by them as by his majesty, by the parliament, and by the country. It was not for him at present to an

ticipate the opinion of that house upon the manner in which the ministry should acquit themelves of the great and solemn obligations by which they might be said to stand bound to their country and to Europe how far ministers upon this great occasion had done what they could do, and ought to do, parlia ment upon a future occasion would have an opportunity of deliberately judging and determining.

Mr. Wilberforce confessed that the sentiments he felt on this great subject were very similar to those of the hon. gentleman opposite. He could not avoid expressing his concern that no communication had been made to parliament, in order that a proper opportunity might have been afforded of giving a sort of authoritative publicity to the unanimous feeling of the nation, that all that England could do for Spain and her cause should be done with equal zeal, promptitude, and disinterestedness; and to show to Spain, and to the world, our ge nerous sympathy in her sufferings, our anxious interest in her struggles, and our hearty and undivided wishes for her complete success. And he was at the same time particularly anxious that Spain should be satis fied, that whatever means we should resort to, to second her efforts, were not the result of any narrow self-consulting policy, any cold and interested speculation, but that they were the spontaneous effusions of British sympathy in the cause of that freedom and independence Britons valued beyond their lives: the cause of Spain was the cause of all those who, from enjoying, knew how to value liberty. he was particularly anxious that the Spaniards should not be furnished with the slightest pretence to believe, that because of the state

But