upon the subject, the Church of Scotland must place itself in a position to render legislation of any avail. The hon. Member for Argyll had stated his views with regard to the condition of the Church in 1640. The writers in that period of our history, however, were entirely at issue with the hon. Gentleman. Dr. Chalmers had particularly dwelt on the dreadfully excited state of Scotland at that time, in consequence of religious enthusiasm, and the church feuds in which the then Duke of Argyle had borne so prominent a part. He could not but remark, that it was a rather singular circumstance that the lineal descendant of that nobleman should, at the present time, be also so warmly engaged in the advocacy of one of the parties to the existing dispute. However, he did not at all intend to impugn the motives of the nobleman he had referred to, who, he was convinced, was actuated by motives of the purest patriotism. Whatever might be his opinion on the policy of the matter, he was convinced the noble Duke had no other object in view than the promotion of the welfare of the Church. Mr. Duff wished to say a word as to a charge which the hon. Member who had just sat down had made against the character of his noble relative Lord Fife. The hon. Gentleman had said that Lord Fife had been actuated by political motives in the course which he had pursued with regard to Mr. Stewart. Now he (Mr. Duff) utterly denied the truth of that statement. It was entirely false, and the hon. Member well knew it to be false. [Cries of "Order," and "Chair."] The Speaker was sure the hon. Member would, on reflection, see that his language was quite unparliamentary. and relative, the Earl of Fife, had refused to sign a statement relative to the case of Mr. Stewart, and that the general impression was, that having so refused, he afterwards did sign it; and that it was believed he had been influenced to do so by a desire to forward the political views of the party to which the noble Lord was himself attached. He (Mr. C. Bruce) had stated this upon authority which he had every reason to believe, and which he did still believe, to be correct. Motion negatived. BONDED CORN.] Mr. Hutt moved, that the House should resolve itself into committee, to take into consideration a resolution to permit flour, or flour and biscuit to be substituted for foreign wheat secured in warehouses. Sir R. Peel said, the hon. Gentleman had asked him whether he should object to his (Mr. Hutt's) bringing in this bill, and having it printed and circulated throughout the country; to which he replied, that he had no objection, but, at the same time, he had not expressed in the slightest degree any approbation of the measure, or the least concurrence in the opinion of the hon. Gentleman. In The House went into committee. committee, Mr. Hutt moved the following resolution : "That the chairman be directed to move, That leave be given to bring in a bill to permit flour, or flour and biscuit to be substituted for foreign wheat secured in warehouses." CONSTITUTION OF THE CHURCH OF for a Mr. Duff would at once retract the ex- SCOTLAND.] Mr. A. Campbell moved pression he had used, and begged to express his regret for having so far deviated from the rules of the House. It was well understood, however, in the hon. Member's neighbourhood, that Lord Fife at all times carefully abstained from political interference: and he was sure that the hon. Member well knew that his noble relative would have taken no part whatever in the matter on any political consideration. Mr. Cumming Bruce was quite aware that the hon. Member (Mr. Duff) did not, in using the word "false," intend to accuse him of making a statement which he did not believe to be true. He had made the statement upon authority on which he believed he could rely, that his noble Friend "Select committee to consider the constitution and principles of the Church of Scotland, and to inquire into the causes of the collision between the Supreme Courts of that Church ander observations thereon to the House; with and the Supreme Civil Courts, and to report power to send for persons, papers, and re cords." He should not occupy the attention of the House for any length of time upon this subject, for the real object which he had in proposing the present motion was, to ascertain the feeling of the House upon it. He would venture to assert, that there were many hon. Gentlemen in that House representing English constituencies, who, the power of nominating, but to apply to notwithstanding the lengthened debate of it such checks as would require them to that night, were still but slightly ac- consult the wishes and the religious feelquainted with the real merits of this ques-ings of the congregations; and what in tion. He submitted to the House that fact had been the working of the veto? they could adopt no better mode of getting Amidst all the excitement that had prerid of this difficulty, and of reaching the vailed, out of two hundred and thirty real merits of the case, than by agreeing to appointments, only seventeen had been this motion. Such a course would at once vetoed. He thought that if the Governput an end to all controversy on the ment would concede the point of nonsubject, and he had the greater confidence intrusion, which the Church had declared in calling upon the House to adopt this to be one of her fundamental points of motion, when her Majesty's Government doctrine, that the question might be easily had declared their intention not to intro- arranged. As to all claim of the Church duce any measure upon the subject, as- to entire freedom from all interference of serting that the law of the land was suffi- the civil jurisdiction, he thought that claim cient to meet every difficulty which might unmaintainable; but he thought the Goarise. He thought, however, that when vernment ought to concede the point of the courts of law in Scotland were at non-intrusion. He should vote for the variance upon the effect of the existing committee. statutes upon this subject, the House would agree with him that the time was come when the interference of Parliament was called for. Sir James Graham said, that the hon. Member who had just spoken had declared that he had no confidence in the Government of the right hon. Baronet (Sir RoMr. Cowper was one of those English bert Peel). It was probable, however, Members to whom the hon. Member had that his confidence had been accorded to referred, and he undoubtedly was free to the Government of the noble Viscount admit, that he had gained little advan- (Viscount Melbourne), who had in the tage from the debate of that night. He course of the last year quitted office. thought that it was highly desirable that Viscount Melbourne, when this subject the Government should accede to this had been under discussion, had declared motion, not only that what he was sure that he was perfectly satisfied with the might be taken to be the prevailing igno- law which regulated the Church of Scotrance which existed upon the subject might land, and after all the discussions upon be removed, but that the whole question this question which had taken place, should be sifted. It appeared to him that looking at the whole case, and at all the confidence of the country was wanted the circumstances surrounding it, he (Sir in the present law. The law which the James Graham) and his Colleagues had Church asserted was said by the Civil come to the same conclusion. It was Courts to be opposed to the statute law of true, that in matters of ecclesiastical law the land. The General Assembly on the arising in Scotland, the General Assembly other hand contended, that the law set up was supreme, and that in civil matters the by the Civil Courts was opposed to the Court of Session was supreme, and that fundamental laws of the Church, and to these two courts were at variance upon the Act of Union. The question of non- this subject; but the House of Lords was intrusion was sufficiently narrow and the court of the last resort, and upon the simple. It was allowed by the Civil decision of that House, which had deCourts that the congregation had a right clared the civil tribunal to have given the to reject a minister, But those Courts proper decision, and which had decided asserted that reasons must be assigned for that the veto law was inconsistent with the exercise of that right. But, he would the law of the land, he was prepared to ask, was it reasonable that that House rest. Her Majesty's Government thought, which had a right to refuse its confidence that, entertaining this opinion, it was not to a Minister of the Crown, as he refused inconsistent with their duty to resist this his to the right hon. Baronet opposite, motion. But he begged the attention of was bound to give the Crown such rea- the House to the form of the motion. It sons as would satisfy the Sovereign judi- proposed a committee to inquire into the cially, that the reasons were well founded?" constitution and principles" of the Church It was not sought to take from the patron of Scotland. He thought that this was not a time to submit to the decision of a | Presbytery of Auchterarder, not to take select committee a question involving the advantage of what had occurred. So far whole system of church government in as this had gone they had bowed to the Scotland, but that to accede to such a decision of the law, and would do so in proposition would be inexpedient and all others relating to their civil rights. highly dangerous. It was to be observed Then, again, a great deal had been said that it was not an inquiry into any law or of the rebellion of the church and of the any statute which was proposed, nor an prosecutions of the seven ministers. Now investigation into any matter of fact, but what had those seven ministers done? the motion was for a committee to inquire Mr. Edwards had been presented by the into great principles recognised by the patron to the living of Strathbogie; perAct of Union itself; and therefore he sonally, he was unexceptionable, but havthought that the House would agree with ing acted as a political agent in the him that this committee should not be parish, he certainly ought not to be apgranted. pointed. The appointment was vetoed, and Mr. Edwards appealed to the Court of Session, to order the Presbytery to admit him, which they had no power to do. What did those seven gentlemen do? Did they appear in court? Did they appear to bow to the authority of the superior Church of Scotland? No such thing. They entered the Civil Courts, and by their own application obtained a decree against them, in order to that which they held to be necessary to their ordination. They could no more compel a Presbyte rian to ordain any person, any more than a churchman. These men were ordained, and the commission of General Assembly proceeded to summon them to the court; eighteen months elapsed; every opportunity was given them to make an apology, but they did not adopt that course. The church had been driven from corner to corner by those who ought to protect her. He warned the Government that if they did not legislate on this point they must take the consequences that must ensue from the great confusion that must inevitably result from letting things remain as they were. Mr. Fox Maule was perfectly able to reconcile the vote he was about to give in favour of the motion, with those Presbyterian feelings to which the right hon. Gentleman had appealed. He had come down to the House rather inclined to vote against the motion, but having heard the instructions of her Majesty's Government, and knowing the committee could only inquire into facts relating to the constitution of the Church of Scotland he should vote in favour of it. They could not give power to any committee to alter the constitution of the church in any way, because that was a power which the legislature itself did not possess. The right hon. Gentleman had alluded to the difference between the power of the Courts Ecclesiastical and Civil. He (Mr. F. Maule) thought it right that the public in England should thoroughly understand what was going on in the North, which they did not understand at present, although the effects of it might soon reach their own firesides. With regard to the Church of Scotland itself, he felt convinced that it was fixed upon such solid foundation that it would emerge from all its difficulties and be more triumphant than it had ever been, even in its brightest days. The right hon. Gentleman had said, that in the Auchterarder case the church had agreed to refer the question of jurisdiction to the House of Lords, and he said, that if the decision had been the other way, they would not have heard about it. The church had referred that question to the House of Lords only for the purpose of determining how far the Court of Law could go with regard to the temporalities of the living, and the moment that was decided to be a matter subject to the cognizance of the Civil Court, the church had succumbed and had directed the Sir R. Peel was surprised that the hon. Gentleman had said anything decidedly in support of the motion-and above all, after the time that he had been in office, and in an office so nearly connected with this subject-for a select committee, on the supposition that that would settle the question. It was the opinion of the late Lord Chancellor (Lord Cottingham), expressed on the motion of the Earl of Aberdeen on this subject, that it would be only a fruitless proceeding to attempt to legislate under present circumstances on this question. If, therefore, this was the opinion of the Government to which the right hon. Gentleman belonged in 1840, and if they would not aid and support his noble Friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) in and learned judgments before the Court the plan which be proposed, and if they of Session, and the arguments and judgwould not adopt or propose a measure of ments in the House of Lords, take up the their own, because they thought that, in multitudinous pamphlets written on the the then existing temper of the people of subject, and then he believed that he would Scotland, it was impossible to settle the find ample sources of information. When matter in a satisfactory manner, they a similar proposition as the present was might have adopted a proposition for a made to the noble Viscount the late head select committee, if they had thought of the Government, he did not acquiesce proper, but they refused to do so. He in the proposition, but said that it was for must, therefore, express his surprise that, the Government to determine when the after the conduct of the hon. Gentleman time had arrived for legislation, and he on former occasions, and after the doubts distinctly refused to transfer the duties of which he had expressed in the earlier part the Government to a select committee. If of the evening, he should have lent any the matter was referred to such a tribunal, countenance to the present motion. If a witnesses would be called up, who would Government wished to evade any difficul- make charges of crimination and recrimities on a question of this kind, or on any nation, and the result would only tend to other, the best course for it to pursue was prolong the unfortunate dissensions which to go to a select committee; this was a now existed in Scotland. If the right hon. temporary sort of arrangement, which was Gentleman saw any chance of quieting befitting a shabby Government. He at- the disputes in the Scotch church, why tached great importance to the settlement not bring in a bill for that purpose? If, of this question; and it was impossible, in the present temper of Scotland, he saw for too many reasons for him to state, not any opportunity for the adjustment of the to do so. He was too deeply interested question, why not bring in a measure for in the moral and social welfare of Scot- its settlement? If he thought a bill resting land not to feel deeply any matter which upon just principles would be accepted, must interfere so much with it, for before would it not be better to bring such a these unfortunate dissensions had arisen, measure forward, and submit it to the he had enjoyed communications and feel- temperate discussion of Parliament, rather ings of uninterrupted harmony with that than bring up the contending parties to country. He apprehended that his right London, and enter into long details and hon. Friend never intended to say, that counter-statements on either side of the he was satisfied with the state of things question? He had no other motive in which existed with reference to the Church taking the course he was adopting than of Scotland, but that he had stated the settlement of the question. Its settlethat, after having opened communica- ment would be a relief to Government. tions with all parts of the country, the He believed that the appointment of a impression in his mind was similar to that committee could produce no satisfactory which actuated the predecessors in office result. It would widen instead of healing to the present Government, namely, that those breaches which already unhappily there did not exist that feeling in Scotland existed. He knew that, if he came down which was likely to lead to a satisfactory to the House and said that he had nothing settlement of the question. He would at to propose on the question, but that he once state, that, immediately after the pre- hoped the House would assist him by sent Government had been appointed to means of a committee in acquiring that office, they took the subject into their information on which he might found a consideration with the view to its settle-measure, he knew that were he to do so, ment. As to the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, that it was desirable that a select committee should be appointed, to allow English gentlemen to obtain information on the subject, he would only observe, that there were ample sources of information without resorting to such a means of obtaining it. If any hon. Gentleman wished to get information on this t, he might, after reading the full he would be told that he was not acting as a minister or a statesman ought to act, and he felt, therefore, that as he could not agree to adopt such a course himself, he could not acquiesce in it when proposed by another. He hoped that the House would pause; he hoped that the House would look to the practicable results which could be expected to follow from the adoption of the proposition embodied Tancred, H. W. in the motion before its notice, before it | Stewart, P. M. Mr. Campbell said, he would only detain the House while he read five lines of a letter he had received from a clergyman of the Scotch church, proving the interest taken by the people of Scotland in the success of his motion. The letter stated, "Your motion is looked forward to with the greatest interest by every friend of the church, and I can only say, God speed you." Tuite, H. M. List of the NOES. Acland, Sir T. D. This was the alleged dismay with which his motion had been received by the people of Scotland. The party whose cause he advocated did not shun inquiry; they courted investigation, for their cause was the cause of truth. He did not bring forward a bill upon the subject, because he did not believe that it would experience fair treatment. What he wished for was a patient investigation into the merits of the question in the calm of a committee room, and he thought that the agreement of the House to his proposition would be only doing justice to the people of land and to itself. The House divided 139: Majority 77. Ayes 62; Noes Clive, hon. R. H. Cripps, W. Crosse, T. B. Darby, G. Dawnay, hon. W. H. Egerton, Sir P. Eliot, Lord Escott, B. Hodgson, R. Hope, G. W. Knatchbull, right hon. Lennox, Lord A. Lindsay, H. H. Mundy, E. M. Neville, R. Newry, Visct. Nicholl, right hon. J. Paget, Col. Palmer, R. Peel, right hon. Sir R. Pigot, Sir R. Pollock, Sir F. Pringle, A. Pusey, P. Rae, right hon. Sir W. Rashleigh, W. |